RB energy

[Daniel]

I have a friend here that wants to know what a .735 ball weighs. Also what kind of energy
it has with 90 gr. od 2f wadded in a 42" barrel. I don't know how to figure that.

[Greg S Day]

Ball weight in grains = D x D x D x 1503  Where D is diameter in inches.

.735 x .735 x .735 x 1503 = 596.8 grains

Don't have a formula for energy.

Greg

[Dphariss]

I have a friend here that wants to know what a .735 ball weighs. Also what kind of energy
it has with 90 gr. od 2f wadded in a 42" barrel. I don't know how to figure that.

This ball is slightly larger than a 12 gauge ball.
You need a chronograph but at 1000 fps it makes 1328 ft lbs. Thornily Stopping Power of 229. This is serious stopping power. With that length of barrel and 90 gr ff 1000 should be conservative but close.
The energy of a 735 RB is irrelevant. In fact at BP  velocities energy is always irrelevant.
For weight, energy and other calculators try the Beartooth Bullets site
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm  Ballisticians Corner if this link is "off".

A .735 RB weights 598 gr in pure lead and would be suitable for any game in India, including Elephant for example, if driven with a 160-180 grains of powder and cast of hardened lead. Its about the minimum for larger game in Africa. It will make about 2410 ft lbs at 1350 fps. Like I said the energy is irrelevant. Thornily's Stopping power runs 309 with this loading.
.458 Win Mag makes 274 with real world 1950 fps velocity. HOWEVER. Its would be marginal for "stopper" headshots on African Elephant according to most sources since RBs are low in penetration compared to long steel jacketed bullets used in modern brass suppository guns. 10 gauge RB kills them dead with lung shots according to John Taylor.
By comparison a 10 gauge rifled slug runs about 760 +- grains and runs under 1300 fps. The hardened ball would penetrate significantly better than this slug.
Dan

[WadePatton]

...The energy of a 735 RB is irrelevant. In fact at BP  velocities energy is always irrelevant.

...735 RB weighs 598 gr in pure lead and would be suitable for any game in India, including Elephant for example, if driven with a 160-180 grains of powder and cast of hardened lead. Its about the minimum for larger game in Africa...
Dan

What Dan says!

forget trying to compare round lead balls to other projectiles.  They work MULTIPLES of times better than any "theoretical calculator" indicates. 

Develop your most accurate load, learn its trajectories, (again, don't calculate-shoot and observe) and be one effective hunter. 




(i would recommend repeater backup in the case of dangerous critters)

[Daniel]

Thanks.
My friend runs a Civil War shop and was needing the info. There was a man in earlier asking about it for bears. I will pass it along.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

you MIGHT be able to take down a rabbit with a head shot but I would stay away from heavy bone like the rabbits shoulder or even ribs. Round balls tend to just bounce off heavy boned animals.

[WadePatton]

Thanks.
My friend runs a Civil War shop and was needing the info. There was a man in earlier asking about it for bears. I will pass it along.

Then you (he) should see this:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=33570.msg322652#msg322652

FORGET the energies, read what the bear hunters say works.



I do wonder though about a man gathering his bear-hunting info at a Civil War shop.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

In 1979 I killed my first moose.  I was hunting with a Brown Bess musket with a .75" cal. x 42" smooth bore and .735" round balls of pure lead on top of 100 grains of FFg GOEX.  I shot my moose at 100 paced off yards through the heavy bones of the shoulder on the left side, through the scapula, both lungs, the right side scapula, and again the bones of the right shoulder.  The ball was recovered under the skin on the right hand side, about the size of a quarter, and must have all but exited, because when the ball struck, there was a shower of snow from that side where it had been bedded down.  Still the moose walked slowly another ten yards and collapsed.  Apparently velocity and energy were acceptable.  We Chrony'd the load and IIRC it was right at the speed of sound, ie:  1089 fps.

[SCLoyalist]

wants to know what a .735 ball weighs. Also what kind of energy
it has with 90 gr. od 2f wadded in a 42" barrel.

A .735 ball should weigh around 598 gr, +/- a few grains depending on purity of the lead.

The formula for energy (taking into account unit conversions)   is KE (in ft-lbs)= mass(in grains)*velocity(in ft/sec)*velocity/450240.  

 My old Lyman BP handbook says 90 gr in a 42inch barrel for a .715 ball produces velocity of 940 fps, muzzle energy of 1075 ft-lbs, and energy at 100 yds of 782 ft lbs.   Your .735 ball ought to be somewhere in those neighborhoods, but to get an overly 'refined' answer (of marginal use) you'd need a trip to the range with a fresh can of whatever brand propellant you're using, the gun in question,  a chronograph and a pocket calculator.

For those liking numbers,     http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/math.html   has several useful math formulas.

[moleeyes36]

In 1979 I killed my first moose.  I was hunting with a Brown Bess musket with a .75" cal. x 42" smooth bore and .735" round balls of pure lead on top of 100 grains of FFg GOEX.  I shot my moose at 100 paced off yards through the heavy bones of the shoulder on the left side, through the scapula, both lungs, the right side scapula, and again the bones of the right shoulder.  The ball was recovered under the skin on the right hand side, about the size of a quarter, and must have all but exited, because when the ball struck, there was a shower of snow from that side where it had been bedded down.  Still the moose walked slowly another ten yards and collapsed.  Apparently velocity and energy were acceptable.  We Chrony'd the load and IIRC it was right at the speed of sound, ie:  1089 fps.

Taylor,

I'm glad you posted that experience because it just amazes me the number of people that have no idea of the effectiveness of round balls on large game.  Those that have an interest in plains rifles and have any actual knowledge of how they were used "back in the day" know that the round ball was what those rifles shot.  And those rifles were used by people on very large and often dangerous game in the plains and Rocky Mountains. 

I think that people who believe they need a conical bullet in a ML to kill large game are as mistaken as those modern center fire gun hunters who think they need belted magnums for anything bigger than squirrels. 

Mole Eyes

[Dan'l 1946]

you MIGHT be able to take down a rabbit with a head shot but I would stay away from heavy bone like the rabbits shoulder or even ribs. Round balls tend to just bounce off heavy boned animals.

    Huh?
       Dan

[Dphariss]

In 1979 I killed my first moose.  I was hunting with a Brown Bess musket with a .75" cal. x 42" smooth bore and .735" round balls of pure lead on top of 100 grains of FFg GOEX.  I shot my moose at 100 paced off yards through the heavy bones of the shoulder on the left side, through the scapula, both lungs, the right side scapula, and again the bones of the right shoulder.  The ball was recovered under the skin on the right hand side, about the size of a quarter, and must have all but exited, because when the ball struck, there was a shower of snow from that side where it had been bedded down.  Still the moose walked slowly another ten yards and collapsed.  Apparently velocity and energy were acceptable.  We Chrony'd the load and IIRC it was right at the speed of sound, ie:  1089 fps.

Hi Taylor
About what I would have expected. Not many things on the planet can tolerate a well places 735 RB for any length if time.

For those who have not read up on the subject....
The British, in their heavy game guns, shot more powder than in a shotgun. As I am sure Taylor knows John Taylor in "Pondoro" described being forced to borrow a gun to hunt with sometime in the 1930s. His ammo was misdirected and he did not eat if he did not sell Ivory. The only gun he could get was a 10 gauge percussion ML. Finding a supply of hardened balls he tired it to a tree for a few shots to assure its was sound then went hunting. It was regulated for 167 gr of powder. I suspect it was a short barreled gun with rifle sights.  He shot around a waterhole at night. Killed "13 good Bulls" with lung shots and IIRC about 6-8 Rhino. Never lost an animal shot. Its at the end of his chapter "More Elephant stories" IIRC.
I also suggest that people read Forsythe's "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles". It can be found and downloaded on the WWW or could a few years ago.
Forstyhe explains the weaknesses (failures) of the conical for large game and its high trajectory over normal hunting ranges. The English used larger bores than Americans did. Thinking anything under 54-58 to be too same for any large animal. Ruxton used 24 bore rilfes (58) and Stewart used a 20 bore (62). Which he claimed killed more game on less powder and lead than any rifle and the Rendezvous he attended (maybe the shooter was less alcohol soaked).  Anyway there is a lot of info out there Sir Samuel Baker is another in his earlier writings, (before brass suppository guns). In recent years at least one hunter has killed Cape Buffalo with a modern made 8 bore rifle (he had a pair made or so I read). So read up.
Selous, while he regretted ever using them said that the smoothbore 4 bore MLs he used in the 1870s "drove" better, penetrated, than anything he used. Use the proper bore size for the game, Forsythe stated that 16 bore was about as small as anyone would use for dangerous game in India, and have fun.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

In 1979 I killed my first moose.  I was hunting with a Brown Bess musket with a .75" cal. x 42" smooth bore and .735" round balls of pure lead on top of 100 grains of FFg GOEX.  I shot my moose at 100 paced off yards through the heavy bones of the shoulder on the left side, through the scapula, both lungs, the right side scapula, and again the bones of the right shoulder.  The ball was recovered under the skin on the right hand side, about the size of a quarter, and must have all but exited, because when the ball struck, there was a shower of snow from that side where it had been bedded down.  Still the moose walked slowly another ten yards and collapsed.  Apparently velocity and energy were acceptable.  We Chrony'd the load and IIRC it was right at the speed of sound, ie:  1089 fps.

Taylor,

I'm glad you posted that experience because it just amazes me the number of people that have no idea of the effectiveness of round balls on large game.  Those that have an interest in plains rifles and have any actual knowledge of how they were used "back in the day" know that the round ball was what those rifles shot.  And those rifles were used by people on very large and often dangerous game in the plains and Rocky Mountains. 

I think that people who believe they need a conical bullet in a ML to kill large game are as mistaken as those modern center fire gun hunters who think they need belted magnums for anything bigger than squirrels. 

Mole Eyes

 I will reallocate the money I saved for a Ruger #1 single shot in 416 Rigby for next squirrel season.
 
 Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Well written, Dan, good advice.

[Daniel]

This has been good. Lots to share and even for me to think about.
My second deer I shot with a 12 ga smoothbore . At around 75 yards.
He was walking away . Turned just a little and I shot. Entered in front of
right hind leg and exited through the left front shoulder. He went right down.

[Dan]

Interesting topic on many levels.  Pardon my ramble, but a few thoughts bubble to the surface.

There has been a great focus by modern shooters on FPE and MV as a litmus for effectiveness for application of various arms and for many years I was in the same camp. Oh sure, I was aware of the sometimes debate but it has never quite  been resolved.  A personal experience ongoing since around 2004 has firmly convinced me that both are a foolish benchmark at best.

It was back then that I began, quite without expecting to do so, killing hogs with a SS .22 rifle. Not just any rifle, but one chambered for shorts, supplied with a large quantity of CCI CB shorts and so equipped demonstrated MOA accuracy to 50 yards consistently.  Over the years it has accounted for about 100 hogs, all dead by a single shot save for 2 which required a second pop.  Necropsy revealed an equally consistent pattern of performance.  Complete penetration of the neck and cervical vertebrae on hogs up to about 125#, or full penetration of the skull from frontal shots regardless of size.  While fully recognizing that a shot to the boiler room wasn't going to precipitate immediate immobilization, I have no doubt that in time they would have been fatal with reasonable placement.  I loathe climbing trees.

Somewhere along the way I have read a variety of discussions about the effectiveness of various bore rifles on big game and despite the telling by Taylor, Bell and other legends I would not think the issue quiet by any measure.  There is, or was great controversy about the merits of the 8 bore vs. 4 bore and probably every other bore/caliber that ever was.  Methinks it might fall back to placement for the most part, but that's just the way my mind works.

An interesting read that is not the least casual for those interested in terminal ballistics:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Primarily focused on wounding theory as relates to conical bullets, it does nonetheless infer clearly why larger bores/calibers of old are not as feeble as many current generation hunters seem to think.  The fallacy lies in what causes death, not the measure of an abstract physics calculation.

With that said, I came to know a very interesting gunsmith whose predilection for old arms of quality has left him expert qualified in my view.  He related a story not long ago after affecting repairs on a very cherished old German built SxS 16 bore, the story being about his experience with an 8 bore English SxS that he charged with BP and ball per the period of its build. The gun is remarkably accurate and very well regulated, placing balls within a very few inches at 100 yards.  I mean like 2-3" with no cross over.  I don't recall, the load used, but it was substantial.  Then he let the cat out of the bag in a manor of speaking.

He said "Dan, I was at the range early on with this gun and it has been a learning experience to say the least. If you ever shoot one of these old guns do not cock both hammers at the same time.  Most wouldn't think this a problem, but you really don't want to experience a double with the likes of an 8 bore or larger.  I was on the 50 yard line and Steve over there (nodding towards the back of the shop at another employee) was standing behind me off to the side when it doubled on me.  One second I was about to shoot and the next my right shoulder, face and left arm were in agony.  The gun was gone and Steve was shaking me and asking if I was OK. The sky sort of turned purple there for a spell.  The gun was laying on the ground about 10' behind me in the sand."

It's true, some guns can hurt on both ends, but is it FPE, momentum, the Taylor Knockout Formula or just the way it is?

[WadePatton]

Interesting topic on many levels... or just the way it is?

Exactly. 

I spent many many hours (in my first 30 years of shooting) devouring and digesting all that has ever been written on internal/external and terminal ballistics and other modern theories including "wildcat" suppositories and all the yarns spun on them.

Now i don't do that any more, i got over it (and it's just not applicable to RB's at large)

It's one of the rare simplification points of my life. Expansion ratio my tooter.

Simple can be extraordinarily good.   

[bigsmoke]

Hey guys,
I have been a long time proponent of large bore muzzleloaders and even now, I am amazed at the sheer power they produce.  Cases in point:  In 2001, I shot a bull buffalo at a lazered 105 yards with a .72 caliber rifle, 200 grains Swiss Ffg, .715 round ball.  Shot him in the neck and the impact knocked him off his feet and put all 1,800 pounds of him onto his back with the legs straight up.  I would say that is knock down power.
A friend and customer of mine shot a big antelope type critter in Africa with a .69 cal, probably about the same powder charge, at 110 yards.  He videoed the shot and the critter just disappeared.  Boom - it was down.
I loaned the same fellow my 8 bore double to take on his next trip and he took out a 525 pound lion charging at about 25 yards.  Said the cat went up in the air did a full one and a half flip and landed on his back.  The bullet channel entered high chest, went all the way through, shattered the pelvic girdle, and exited out kitty's butt.
Anyone who does not think round ball is not effective just does not know big bores.
John

[Dan]

I think round balls are extraordinary regardless of size actually.  Many moons ago in the Double Gun Journal, Ross Seyfried did a piece on such projectiles and commented that they tended to penetrate quite a bit better than their form and sectional density suggested.  At the time I held a piece of Oconee River bottom country near Dublin, GA and we were plumb overrun with hogs, to the point that deer and to some extent turkeys had abandoned the place.

A few years later and some 77 dead hogs things began to improve with amazing alacrity.  The interesting point to me came from my use of an Ithaca 37 20 bore stuffed with #3 buckshot.  I never jerked the trigger more than once/hog. On three occasions I took down 3 hogs (adults) with a single shot, largely due to pass thrus.  Yes, the distance was close, but I only saw a few times when all or most of shot failed to fully penetrate, even on hogs up to the 250# range. Large bone would stop them, but little else did so.  Because buck is generally hardened and the velocity is mild it rarely expands. Neither do CB Shorts. But they can penetrate like the dickens in the right circumstance.

Dan

[Dennis Glazener]

Guys ALR rules are that we do not discuss modern arms yet this thread is filled with references to modern guns. I am going to lock the thread and ask, again, please adhere to our rules. This forum IS NOT intended to be used for modern arms. There are plenty of other forums where you can discuss these guns.
Dennis

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