Author Topic: long range shooting ?  (Read 11935 times)

Offline gunmaker

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long range shooting ?
« on: January 13, 2015, 12:06:54 AM »
Have a bite on a Alex.Henry type long range rifle.  Along lines of a Whitworth/Creedmore target piece.  I can make the gun---but what do we feed it ?  He wants either .451 or .458 fast twist for bullets 400-600 grainers ?  Bare lead, hard cast, paper patch, how much powder--bbl. will be 4140 35" tapered oct.  ?  How'd they do it back then ?  The questions are endless at this point.  If this belongs in shooting--sorry...Tom  (lost in the desert)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 12:08:27 AM by gunmaker »

Offline Kevin Houlihan

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 04:52:59 AM »
Tom,
  I shoot Black Powder Target Rifle with a cartridge rifle, but shoot with guys who shoot muzzle loaders.  You want less than 15 lbs. over all weight.  1:18 or 1:16 twist barrel. 540 (ish) grain Creedmoor bullet cast in 20:1 or 25:1. The bullets should be cast or sized so that they almost slide down the barrel. 80-100 grains Swiss 1.5 or 2 FF powder.  QUALITY tang sights and front aperture sight from Baldwin, MVA etc.  This basic combination should be good to 1000 yds.
Good luck
Kevin

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 04:56:06 AM »
You didn't mention the twist.  My Badger barrel is 1 turn in 18" and likes a 540 gr pp bullet.  I'll pay attention to the replies.  There are some good LR shooters here.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 06:14:49 AM »
Mine is a 45 cal   1 in 18 twist.  It likes 535 gr PP bullet [ a Ballard adjustable weight PP mould , top pour ]
I settled on 75  gr  2 F powder. Rear sight is a Soule long range tang sight from my C. Sharps 45-100. I got another base for it , to keep the cost down.   Powder, felt wad, lube wad, then veg fibre wad and PP bullet.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 06:45:04 AM »
Have a bite on a Alex.Henry type long range rifle.  Along lines of a Whitworth/Creedmore target piece.  I can make the gun---but what do we feed it ?  He wants either .451 or .458 fast twist for bullets 400-600 grainers ?  Bare lead, hard cast, paper patch, how much powder--bbl. will be 4140 35" tapered oct.  ?  How'd they do it back then ?  The questions are endless at this point.  If this belongs in shooting--sorry...Tom  (lost in the desert)

A high quality barrel NOT made from screw stock is priority one..A .450 land and .458 groove diameter with a 1:18 twist is what is used today.The best and proper breech plug is from Rod England who now owns all that
Don Brown had to build these fine rifles.<rtengland864@aol.com>or 1-864-590-6718. If you are going to make it Rod may be able to furnish a semi finished stock. Don Brown offered it as a kit.I made some locks for these but don't do them any more.Dixie may have one or two of mine from a deal I got on with the late Hunter Kirkland. R.E.Davis offers a lock that is correct for the Don Brown breech that Rod sells.Internally it lacks detail
but may be tuned.
The rifle I made had a GM 45 fast twist and was 1-1/8"straight octagon but I turned it down to .900 at the muzze and left a couple of inches octagon to match the breech plug.It shot really well for me.
Both paper patched and grooved bullets are good and most use paper patched for 1000-1200 yards.Weights run from 500 to 550 originally but I hear of 600 grainers now and 100 grains of powder.These loads are why a high quality barrel and breech are mandatory.

Bob Roller

Offline gunmaker

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 07:33:48 AM »
Thanks fellas, we'll see.   Oregon barrel co. will make the tube from 4140 or other modern hi-pressure steel.   1:18 alex Henry rifling.  I will want a machined plug, no casting on this one.   Theres a book out " target rifle in Australia"  it also covers some American rifles & includes load data.....Going to get it for ref. work, along with all good info so far from here....Thanks.......Tom

Offline snapper

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 03:08:09 PM »
I have 5 long range ML rifles and I actively shoot long range competitions.  With the exception of my original Rigby the other 4 barrels are badger.  I shoot both grease groove and PP.  My bullets are around 520-541 grains.  Dia of my gg are .451, PP .450  I lube and size the GG, size the PP.  Just started playing with the PP in 2014. 

My load for one is 86 grains of 2f swiss.  I get very good accuracy at 1,000 yards with the rifle I normally shoot.

What you end up shooting in your rifle as you know all depends on the rifle.  Been playing with the Rigby and it seems to like a lighter load around 75 grains with the PP shooting better than the GG.  My Alex Henry loves the GG and 86 grains.

I like the MVA rear sights and distant thunder front sights.  My Rigby has Neumann sights on it as his are correct for an original rifle. 

be happy to help any way that I can.

TOF of this list will most likely comment on the build.  He put together 3 of my rifles and did a wonderful job.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline gunmaker

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 08:19:32 PM »
What are Badger bbl.  custom, made where/who, price ??  more good info...But whats PP, GG, gg,   whole nother language.   ...Tom

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 08:30:55 PM »
What are Badger bbl.  custom, made where/who, price ??  more good info...But whats PP, GG, gg,   whole nother language.   ...Tom

 Tom,
 PP or pp is paper patched and GG.gg is grease grooved. Pertains to bullets
 used in these long range rifles.
 
 Bob Roller

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 03:06:49 AM »
What are Badger bbl.  custom, made where/who, price ??  whole nother language.   ...Tom

Tom,
Badger Barrels were made by Ernie Stallman.  Mine is a tapered octagon .450" on lands and .458" in grooves. A one in 18" twist stabilizes the PP (paper patch) that weighs 540 grains.  I bought my barrel in 2000; I don't think Ernie is still in business. I do believe his barrels were sought after for the 1000 yd matches at Oak Ridge - at least those of us who could not afford an original. 

A modern side hammer rifle that is often used is the Petersoli Gibbs. To those not familiar, these rifles resemble English Stalking rifles. (I hope that is not to general a comparison.)  Snapper is a good source on information on these side hammer ML target rifles.

Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 03:33:13 AM »
What are Badger bbl.  custom, made where/who, price ??  whole nother language.   ...Tom

Tom,
Badger Barrels were made by Ernie Stallman.  Mine is a tapered octagon .450" on lands and .458" in grooves. A one in 18" twist stabilizes the PP (paper patch) that weighs 540 grains.  I bought my barrel in 2000; I don't think Ernie is still in business. I do believe his barrels were sought after for the 1000 yd matches at Oak Ridge - at least those of us who could not afford an original. 

A modern side hammer rifle that is often used is the Petersoli Gibbs. To those not familiar, these rifles resemble English Stalking rifles. (I hope that is not to general a comparison.)  Snapper is a good source on information on these side hammer ML target rifles.

Regards,
Pletch

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?149342-Wilson-Arms-Company-%E2%80%93-Bristol-formerly-known-as-Badger

the pertinent post from that thread:

Quote
Wilson Arms Company – Bristol, formerly known as Badger

    Update on The Wilson Arms Company – Bristol, formerly known as Badger Defense, formerly known as Badger Barrels.

    As many of you know, in 2009 the assets of Badger Barrels Inc. were acquired by the Principals of Airtronic USA. The company was renamed Badger Defense, LLC and continued to supply barrels for various US military weapons and also to nations friendly to the US. At the time Ernie Stallman, the original owner of Badger Barrels indicated that Badger Defense would continue to supply barrels in small quantities to the consumer market. Shortly afterwards it became clear that Ernie’s comment was either short-sighted or that military contracts required all of Badger’s production capacity. I may be wrong, but I don’t believe that Badger Defense supplied any BPCR barrels to the commercial/consumer market.

    In any case, recently (2012) Wilson Arms Co. purchased all the assets of Badger Defense. The new facility will be known as The Wilson Arms Company – Bristol (Bristol, Wisconsin). Wilson Arms Co. is a high volume barrel supplier with minimum order requirements of 100 barrels.

    Wayne
Hold to the Wind

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 05:21:21 AM »
I don't know beans about these guns, but I just noticed that Rice makes a 4140 chrome moly fast
twist bullet barrel.

Offline gunmaker

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 07:48:24 AM »
I don't know beans either flinchrocket--but I'm fixing to learn.   Didn't know Jason made a 4140 fast twist, will look into that--thanks.   

Offline Dan

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 02:24:12 PM »




Shoot a sidelock now and again that has a .40 barrel by Kreiger, 32" in length.

http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/ubbthreads.php/forum_summary
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 02:26:06 PM by Dan »

Offline T*O*F

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 07:44:33 PM »
Quote
What are Badger bbl.  custom, made where/who, price ??
Tom,
Badger barrels are no longer available, nor are suitable barrels from others, with one exception.  Snapper and I bought the last 3 sets of hardware from Don Brown's widow.  His set included a Badger barrel but mine didn't.  I was unable to source any barrels for mine until Rod England made them available and I waited over 4 years to get mine.  Mine were part of the first run and are made by Rice Barrels and profiled by someone else.  These barrels are only available from Rod and Rice won't sell or make you one.

The breeches are cast and needn't be machined as they have the proper strength and profile.  All the screws are tapered English screws and have 60 degree heads so you will need to purchase the proper set of countersinks.  If you buy the profiled stock from Rod, DO NOT get the lock pre-inlet if you plan to use either the Davis lock or Roller's lock.  Neither will fit into the mortise and the lock plate profile must be modified to make them work requiring many hours of filing and fitting.  There is MINIMAL room for error.

If you want to build one, Rod's component set is the only way to go as all the parts are matched to fit.  On the face of it, the gun seems simple but it's not.  All kinds of little details that will come back to bite you in the butt if you're not careful.

There are two restrictions weight wise.  The "traditional" class requires the gun weigh less than 10 lbs.  The regular class requires it to be less than 15 lbs.  To build a heavy gun of the Rigby style, one would obtain an 1-1/8" barrel blank and an 1-1/4" breech from TOTW.  These breeches are not drilled, but do have a powder chamber.  You would drill from the offside (left) to locate your primer channel and then insert a filler piece from that side.  Then, you can obtain a short piece of DOM tubing with an 1-1/8" ID and cut it into short sections for form your Rigby flats which are soldered to the blank.  To have a Rigby barrel profiled by someone would probably cost you upwards of $1K to have made.

I can help you with any advice you might need.  As I said, Snapper's rifle was one of three.  #2 will be mine and I made a Damascus lock plate and toe box for it and everything will be a fine plum brown.  I may try to do false Damascus on the barrel.  #3 will be a conventional AH with a Roller lock.  I also have a heavy Rigby on the bench and a light .38 with an octagon barrel in the works.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Gene Carrell

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2015, 02:54:11 AM »
The reproduction Rigby that I have shot competitively at Oak Ridge (before my eyes started to go bad) has a GM "bullet" barrel 1:18 twist. It shoots best with a Leath GG 545gr Paul Jones style bullet cast with 1:30 mix. Most shoot pure lead and paper patched bullets. My load consists of 100gr 2Fg Swiss, compressed to 40lbs in the bore, .060 poly wad, bullet seated firmly. GG or PP will be determined by the bbl. For 1000yds look for at least 1250 fps at the muzzle. A platinum lined nipple is needed to hold up for any reasonable length of time. My Whitworth shoots a PP 560gr bullet of pure lead and a hex 9mm felt wad instead of the poly. Both haveMVA front and Goodwin rear sights.
Gene

Offline Daryl

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2015, 08:09:46 AM »
Gene has just proved, what I was going to post - re: GM 18" twist barrels.  The one I have in 4140, is very accurate. I am sure it would be even more so, if on a Muzzle loader.
Daryl

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Offline snapper

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2015, 03:00:36 PM »
You can certainly get and use a GM barrel.  But you will have to machine it unless you want a oct barrel. 

TOF most likely has as much if not more experience on building this rifles as anyone in the US.  He has put together for me 3 of these rifles, plus the ones he is working on for himself.

Not sure if Rod England has put any together yet, but he would certainly be a good source for information and parts.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: long range shooting ?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2015, 03:52:53 PM »
You can certainly get and use a GM barrel.  But you will have to machine it unless you want a oct barrel. 

TOF most likely has as much if not more experience on building this rifles as anyone in the US.  He has put together for me 3 of these rifles, plus the ones he is working on for himself.

Not sure if Rod England has put any together yet, but he would certainly be a good source for information and parts.

Fleener

 I have a picture of a long range muzzle loader with a 1-1/8th inch barrel
and it doesn't look bad.Sort of an upscale Hawken.These guns have most
of their weight in the barrel and it would help manage recoil when a load
of 100 grains of black powder gooses a 550 grain bullet from under the
front sight.

Bob Roller