Author Topic: Stripped threads on Tumbler (Read 10605 times)

Gun_Nut_73 · « **on:** January 25, 2015, 11:37:58 PM »

Hi All,

I bought a Pennsylvania/Kentucky type rifle about 40 years ago, and put it in the back of my safe as I couldn't make it work properly. The only markings are hand stamped CAL 31 BK 77.

I recently dug it out with the idea of making it shoot-able, and found that the blind hole in the tumbler that holds the hammer to the tumbler is stripped. I think it was supposed to he threaded 8-32, but there is not enough metal left in the hole to grip, and I am not sure the tumbler shaft is big enough to tap for a 10-32. The lock has no name or markings on it anywhere.

What should I do? I am working off my kitchen table, an do not have a lathe, mill, drill press, or welding rig. Is there a way to fix the existing tumbler, or should I try to find another lock of similar dimensions? I'm in CA, so there is no source anywhere nearby that I could go to in person.

All suggestions appreciated. I may not follow the suggestions, but they are still appreciated. Grin.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2015, 12:39:52 AM »

I would be surprised if the stripped thread was 8-32 tpi. They usually are 6-32 or less. And, on production built replica guns, they rarely are in inches, they are more commonly metric. Just be careful when tapping the new threads, broken taps can be a booger to get out.

Hungry Horse

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2015, 12:44:17 AM »

Thank you Hungry horse. An 8-32 screw just fits the hole. The hammer "screw" turned out to be a rivet, so I am guessing at thread sizes. Any suggestions on which metric thread size I should try? Whichever I use, I will have to find a screw as well.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2015, 12:57:48 AM »

This sounds like a replica that shouldn't be put back into working order. I have never heard of a riveted hammer screw. When you go up a thread size you reduce the material in the tumbler boss, making it much easier to shear off. Many cheap locks have no internal stops, so when the hammer impacts the nipple, all the stored energy, is transferred to the tumbler boss.
I fixed an old replica some time ago by cementing a proper sized threaded shaft in the stripped hole with Loc-tite bearing mount, and then making a slotted round nut, to secure the hammer.

Hungry Horse

P.W.Berkuta · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:01:40 AM »

I just measured a large Siler cock screw and it is 0.163" dia and that is a # 8 screw -- did not check the TPI but I bet it is a 32 TPI.

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:16:17 AM »

Many thanks, everyone for the help.

I agree that is likely an imitation, even if it does have a beautiful color case hardened look. The hammer screw has a slotted head and is color case hardened like the lock, but, as I discovered, has no threads on it, and is HOLLOW. The lock plate has two lugs welded to the lock plate.

A 0.75mm tap just drops into the hole in the tumbler, and there is not enough metal on the tumbler shaft to thread with a 0.80mm tap.

Shape is a hair smaller than a Siler Mountain lock with round ends and flat bottom, if the printout I made from TotW is accurate, and mine uses 2 screws for attachment to the side-plate. Maybe a CVA lock will fit, although those use only one screw for the side-plate. Length is 4 3/8" with a dished area for the drum and nipple.

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #6 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:21:50 AM »

If the only markings on the barrel are hand stamped CAL 31 BK 77, I wouldn't think it was a mass produced "replica" like a CVA, etc. Can you post pictures of the gun? Might help with identification.

-Ron

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2015, 01:44:37 AM »

My apologies. I meant the LOCK was a poor imitation. I know the rifle itself was a modern make
.

frogwalking · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:16:45 AM »

If you could post photos of the rifle, and the lock, perhaps someone could recognize it. That is, who made it. If so perhaps a replacement tumbler could be found. Even if parts are not commercially available, someone on this board may have one. Another possibility is to replace the entire lock. Again, photos are required if folks are to do more than guess. I would like to think the rivet was not original, but installed to fill the hole by a previous owner.

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2015, 09:27:21 AM »

I will try to get some photos and post them soon. Many thanks to everyone for the help.

Pete G. · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2015, 05:03:32 PM »

There is a possibility that a currently available tumbler might be close enough to be modified.
Incidentally, Chambers locks have an 8-32 thread in the tumbler shaft.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2015, 07:42:45 PM »

My fear is this could be a non-firing replica, that was never intended to be actually fired. I would carefully remove the barrel, and check the breech plug, and if I had any doubts, I would take it to a gunsmith. Century Arms imported a butt load of these back in the day, that were sold as wall hangers. The tip off might be that nobody seemed to want to put their name on this gun. JMO.

Hungry Horse

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2015, 09:16:20 PM »

It is definitely a real rifle. I bought it used, and shot it several times. It seems to just have a poor lock in it. I will try to borrow a camera and get some photos taken.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2015, 10:25:33 PM »

I know I don't normally recommend L&R, but they do have a RPL line of locks to fit CVA and such production guns. The L&R locks are certainly an upgrade. The lock you have can certainly be fixed. It is just a matter of do you have all the skills and equipment (the heat treating is usually the biggie) to do it yourself, or is it worth paying someone else to do it. I think the most cost effective solution is to fit a new high quality lock if you can find one the right size or a little bigger. Look at Chambers, Davis, and L&R for options.

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2015, 11:33:10 PM »

Here is the Tinypic URL (I hope)

http://tinypic.com/4dum4xw0

You can see the "screw" is hollow, and without threads. If anyone recognizes the lock, or has a suitable replacement available, please let me know.

shifty · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2015, 01:25:52 AM »

Gun-Nut-73 the CVA Hawken Lock has two mounting screws. I can't view your pic.

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2015, 01:41:34 AM »

PM me your address, and I will email a set to you.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2015, 03:44:27 AM »

The gun appears to be a Numrich Arms squirrel rifle. I have the Minute Man version, which is the same gun with a .45 cal. barrel. The locks on these are not as bad as some. If you don't intend to use it a lot, fix it, and call it good. The CVA replacements won't work on this gun. The Numrich is about the same length, but is quite a bit wider.
The barrels on these guns can be pretty good, depending on who they bought them from. They are notoriously weak at the wrist, due to its small diameter. The breech plug on these guns is a big allen head set screw, and the tang is part of the barrel. The ramrod pipes are often glued in.

Hungry Horse

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2015, 04:51:23 AM »

Thanks for the information. Mine has a hooked breech with a short tang. I can live with the oversized ramrod thimbles. Only real issue is the lock. I may Lock-Tite the pin to hold the hammer in place until I can find a replacement. Hammer is a little loose on the tumbler shaft, and there is not enough metal to re-thread the tumbler. I will check Numrich for a replacement lock.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2015, 09:11:18 PM »

You can upset the edges of the square hole in the hammer, with a small coal chisel, and tighten it up pretty good. If you Loc-tite a headless 8-32 into the hole in the tumbler, and then spin a nut round, with your electric drill, or drill press, and slot it. You will have a repairable unit, instead of one you can't work on. I seriously doubt you will find a replacement lock for this gun.

Hungry Horse

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 30, 2015, 10:51:32 PM »

Well, I am going to be in Colorado in March, and I know there is a ML shop in Manitou Springs, so I will take the lock with me, and look for a suitable replacement. I am guessing that I want a lock with the sear and hammer in the same area, and any excess metal towards the front of the lock, where I can safely file it to fit.

shifty · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2015, 01:35:28 AM »

Hey Gun_Nut _73 Manitou Springs used to be one of my old hangouts,Do you know the name of the ML shop there ,will be trying to go through there this yr also.

eddillon · « **Reply #22 on:** January 31, 2015, 02:05:39 AM »

It was, maybe still is, The Mountain Man Shop. Corner of Ruxton and Manitou Ave. You can't miss it. Many years ago when I lived in Colorado Springs I made a Hawken for Theron Swovland who was the owner. He and his wife divorced. She continued running the place. Now back on topic. #8 sounds a little big for a tumbler.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #23 on:** January 31, 2015, 02:52:12 AM »

Quote from: aka california eddillon on January 31, 2015, 02:05:39 AM

It was, maybe still is, The Mountain Man Shop. Corner of Ruxton and Manitou Ave. You can't miss it. Many years ago when I lived in Colorado Springs I made a Hawken for Theron Swovland who was the owner. He and his wife divorced. She continued running the place. Now back on topic. #8 sounds a little big for a tumbler.

I would expect an 8x32 or 8x40 in a military tumbler but it would be
big for almost any sporting rifle lock. All of mine are 6x40.

Bob Roler

Gun_Nut_73 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 31, 2015, 08:55:17 AM »

Yes, it is The Mountain Man Shop. Manitou built a roundabout at that intersection, so it is very visible. I'll try to schedule my trip to coincide with some of the gun shows out that way, as well.

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Author Topic: Stripped threads on Tumbler (Read 10605 times)

eddillon