Author Topic: Inside view of #11 cap going off (Read 12638 times)

FrontierMuzzleloading · « **on:** January 31, 2015, 10:23:00 AM »

Remington #11 with a Hot Shot nipple. This picture was only about 3" away from the breech plug when it went off. I have an awesome video to upload later where the smoke from the previous cap actually filters it out and you'll see a hot flame shoot into the drum and directly into the breech plug.

Heres a screen shot from the best video clip. When I do the video I will do normal run time and then slow motion. Pretty friggin awesome! This shows me how great the flame channel on my Hawken is working.

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSCs3CAHBK8&feature=youtu.be

Dan · « **Reply #1 on:** January 31, 2015, 04:51:29 PM »

Pretty slick that is, thank you!

Now I know why I don't chew them after lunch.

Frizzen · « **Reply #2 on:** January 31, 2015, 08:44:38 PM »

Here is a standard CCI no. 11 cap. I wonder why people want the magnums's

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #3 on:** January 31, 2015, 09:04:14 PM »

Phil: Is that just a cap on an empty barrel, or is it a cap firing a charge?

Daryl · « **Reply #4 on:** January 31, 2015, 11:16:55 PM »

Quote from: Frizzen on January 31, 2015, 08:44:38 PM

Here is a standard CCI no. 11 cap. I wonder why people want the magnums's

I'd guess magnum caps are necessary to ignite some of the phony powders when one does not have a rifle using shotshell primers.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #5 on:** February 01, 2015, 12:45:09 AM »

My question to Phil had to do with how much over spray there is in the photo. If that's all cap...WOW!! But if a round has just been touched off, the hammer may have lifted a bit to allow gases to escape the nipple. So that's my question.

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2015, 01:06:14 AM »

Hey Frontier,
Thank you for posting the cap photo. For a long time I have wondered about the relative strength (inside the barrel) of the "blast" a cap and a flintlock. I have photos from flintlock ignition from inside but haven't seen a cap ignition from inside until today. Below is a pic from a web article. The pan had .5 gr of Swiss Null B close to the vent. The fire exiting the barrel to the right is just a cleanout hole.

Were you concerned about damage to your lens when you took the photo?

Regards,
Pletch

FrontierMuzzleloading · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2015, 01:12:36 AM »

A bit, but I used a layer of clear packing tape over it before dropping it down the bore.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2015, 03:06:07 AM »

Quote from: Frizzen on January 31, 2015, 08:44:38 PM

Here is a standard CCI no. 11 cap. I wonder why people want the magnums's

They are impressed by the word "Magnum".There was a discussion on the
Long Range Muzzle Loader Forum a few years ago about "magnum"caps
and primers in BPCR and the general consensus was that the gentler firing non
magnum caps and primers worked best for accuracy.

Bob Roller

Natureboy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2015, 03:37:17 AM »

I have my great grandfather's Mississippi Rifle that he carried in the Civil War. It was used afterward for hunting. The wood around the nipple has been somewhat burned away, with all the rounds it has fired. I assume that the large musket caps could do that, plus any heat and flame blowing back through the nipple and directed downward by the hammer. I used to shoot it, but now it is there to be admired, and I've gone to shooting flintlocks.

Mad Monk · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2015, 07:47:11 AM »

The "Magnum" cap carries 15% more, by weight, of the primer composition compared to a "standard" cap. In the case of Remington Black Powder caps they contained 50% more, by weight, of the primer composition.

Black powder is best ignited by flame or particulate debris heated to incandescence. Heated gasses have little effect in igniting grains of black powder.

The larger the grain size the more difficult it is to ignite black powder with percussion caps. The larger the grain of powder, the thicker the glaze is on the grains making it more difficult to get through the glaze to the combustible portion beneath the glaze.
I went through all of this with a guy from the Netherlands who spent a week at the Hagley Museum working with antique powder testers for a book he published on them and how they worked.

When we tried percussion caps with a cannon powder in the old powder testers we could not get a single ignition. The grains came back out looking like glass beads. None of the caps produced sparks large enough to melt through the heavy glaze on the powder grains which would have given ignition.

Mad Monk

Mad Monk · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2015, 09:31:56 PM »

I forgot to mention. In the photos you see a lot of sparks flying away from the cap. Those sparks are tiny droplets of lead heated to incandescence. When fulminate of mercury had been used in percussion caps the droplets of hot liquid mercury would be the sparks.

Mad Monk

smylee grouch · « **Reply #12 on:** February 01, 2015, 09:40:15 PM »

Those pictures can help make a strong argument for the use of saftey glasses. I also am wondering what the temperature of the gasses comming out of a flints vent can reach.

Frizzen · « **Reply #13 on:** February 01, 2015, 09:40:59 PM »

That is just the plain cap. No charge of any kind. The gun was a CVA 45 Philly Deninger

Mad Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** February 01, 2015, 10:48:47 PM »

Quote from: smylee grouch on February 01, 2015, 09:40:15 PM

Those pictures can help make a strong argument for the use of saftey glasses. I also am wondering what the temperature of the gasses comming out of a flints vent can reach.

I have never seen anything on that point. I know what the maximum temperatures of the gases can be behind an accelerating projectile in the bore. But I can tell you from experience that if you hand is close to the vent of a flintlock when it fires you are in for a heap of hurt. One day at the range I made a BIG mistake. Gun pointed down range. Changed flints with a charge in the bore. Did not plug the vent and tripped the lock to check for sparks. Thought with the barrel in the normal firing position no sparks could make it in through the vent with no powder in the pan. The gun fired with my hand only a few inches from the vent. In with the gases were small grains of burning powder that quickly embedded into the fleshy part of my hand behind my thumb. So there I was. Staring in wonderment at my hand with smoking grains of powder in my hide. Took a few seconds for my brain to register the pain. Quickly dumped my water bottle on the smoldering hide.

Then thought about what I had read on how Eastern Indians treated hated captives by tying them up and firing blank charges into them at close range.

So on my right hand I carry "powder tattoos' for the remainder of my days. Contacts with police I know are always good for a laugh. They see the burnt powder marks and ask if I am back to my old ways of hunting burglars at night in this neighborhood. Smokeless powder burns will go away because there is no carbon to act as a tattoo ink. But charcoal deep in your skin does not go away.

Mad Monk

EC121 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 01, 2015, 11:21:44 PM »

One time at a match I told a guy that a really good way to test a flintlock was to fire it inverted. If it would light the priming before it fell ou,t it was a good lock. So without thinking it through he rolls his rifle over and pulls the trigger. This put the touchhole right in his belly. Burned a hole in his shirt and skin.
I got my belly tattoo shooting a righthanded rifle lefthanded. I turned my head to look at something behind me and touched the trigger.

Dphariss · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2015, 12:55:40 AM »

Quote from: smylee grouch on February 01, 2015, 09:40:15 PM

Those pictures can help make a strong argument for the use of saftey glasses. I also am wondering what the temperature of the gasses comming out of a flints vent can reach.

The cap flash photo is a graphic explanation of why proper breech design is important.

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/494/1/AAN-344

Proper design and nipple location will keep sparks and other material off the face where shooting glasses do not cover.
I knew a man with a black tattoo on his nose. I have been cut by cap fragments when shooting one of the Belgian made DGW Squirrel Rifles with a high nipple seat.

Dan

woodsrunner · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2015, 06:06:19 PM »

At some point in the past..1, 2 or 3 years, slow motion photos were made and posted of a flintlock firing showing the flames and the cock rebounding a couple of times. I don't remember where I saw this, but I think it was here on our Forum. Does anyone remember? And how to pull it up? Mad Monk...you maybe?

Daryl · « **Reply #18 on:** February 02, 2015, 06:35:23 PM »

My wife carried a small copper chip in her eyelid from a TC Seneca .36 for some 20 years mid 70's to mid 90's. It had turned green, just a small spec in her left eye. Had it been in her right eye, her open shooting eye, it would have embedded right in her shiny eyeball.

Thus the warming - wear glasses, whether shooting flint or cap.

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #19 on:** February 02, 2015, 08:54:36 PM »

Quote from: woodsrunner on February 02, 2015, 06:06:19 PM

At some point in the past..1, 2 or 3 years, slow motion photos were made and posted of a flintlock firing showing the flames and the cock rebounding a couple of times. I don't remember where I saw this, but I think it was here on our Forum. Does anyone remember? And how to pull it up? Mad Monk...you maybe?

The link below is a "table of contents" to a number of pages of slow motion video of flintlocks. The large majority were filmed at 5000 fps. These were done in 2007 and 2009, with most done at Friendship. The very first were done in my garage in order to have our ducks in a row before we tried this at Friendship.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/category/videos/

Regards,
Pletch

woodsrunner · « **Reply #20 on:** February 02, 2015, 09:39:36 PM »

Yes, that's it! Thanks a million, Pletch! IIRC, times were also given in thousandts of a second from the time the frizzen touched the frizzen until ignition in the pan and in the chamber took place. Where do I find these times?

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #21 on:** February 02, 2015, 10:23:40 PM »

Quote from: woodsrunner on February 02, 2015, 09:39:36 PM

Yes, that's it! Thanks a million, Pletch! IIRC, times were also given in thousandts of a second from the time the frizzen touched the frizzen until ignition in the pan and in the chamber took place. Where do I find these times?

The home page for www.blackpowdermag.com has a pull down menu for articles. There you will find a number of lock-timing articles, reprinted with permission from MuzzleBlasts.

Regards,
Pletch

FrontierMuzzleloading · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2015, 12:46:00 AM »

Wait till you see this Hollow base nipple!

Scout · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2015, 06:13:26 PM »

Quote from: Daryl on February 02, 2015, 06:35:23 PM

My wife carried a small copper chip in her eyelid from a TC Seneca .36 for some 20 years mid 70's to mid 90's. It had turned green, just a small spec in her left eye. Had it been in her right eye, her open shooting eye, it would have embedded right in her shiny eyeball.

Thus the warming - wear glasses, whether shooting flint or cap.

Good safety point.
Maybe the folks of the 18th and 19th century closed there eyes after finding target with the sights when pulling the trigger? I have seen some flint muskets with a protective piece of brass to shield the flash pan from the shooter, never on a rifle or even the Civil War muskets.

I wonder if there is any documentation about eye injury from shooting these weapons back in the day?

I will scour the web for answers.

Mad Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** February 15, 2015, 06:53:26 PM »

Quote from: Scout on February 15, 2015, 06:13:26 PM

Quote from: Daryl on February 02, 2015, 06:35:23 PM
My wife carried a small copper chip in her eyelid from a TC Seneca .36 for some 20 years mid 70's to mid 90's. It had turned green, just a small spec in her left eye. Had it been in her right eye, her open shooting eye, it would have embedded right in her shiny eyeball.

Thus the warming - wear glasses, whether shooting flint or cap.

Good safety point.
Maybe the folks of the 18th and 19th century closed there eyes after finding target with the sights when pulling the trigger? I have seen some flint muskets with a protective piece of brass to shield the flash pan from the shooter, never on a rifle or even the Civil War muskets.

I wonder if there is any documentation about eye injury from shooting these weapons back in the day?

I will scour the web for answers.

In regards to the 19th century percussion caps.
Those original caps I had looked at were made with a very soft copper. The cap metal was also a bit thicker than what we see now. The 19th century caps were primed with fulminate of mercury. Compared to our modern primer compositions, fulminate of mercury would ignite at a lower impact shock value. In other words it did not take as much force to ignite it so the caps could be a bit heavier metal. The soft copper was not prone to splitting as our more modern caps are.

Mad Monk

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Author Topic: Inside view of #11 cap going off (Read 12638 times)

FrontierMuzzleloading

FrontierMuzzleloading

FrontierMuzzleloading