Author Topic: Tennesse Rifle  (Read 11306 times)

case42so

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Tennesse Rifle
« on: January 31, 2015, 05:27:39 PM »
I am going to build a Tennessee Rifle based on the TVM kit.  This is will be my first build since 1970.  Any tips on building this kit would be appreciated.  Also, does anyone know any books that have good pictures of Tennessee rifles?  Thank you.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 06:38:06 PM »
Don't use the Siler lock* or you immediately lose "Tenneessee Rifle" status.  TN calls for English style lock.  Maybe they have other locks and other stock inlets so you can do it "more righter". Inquire-let them know that kit-builders are getting better educated.

study study study.  i collect photos from auction sites, here in ALR museum, contemporary makers blog, anywhere I can find them.

I hear that Jerry Nobles' books are the best, but I don't personally know how good the photographs are. I've been quite disappointed by some picture books of rifles (some expensive).  So I'm holding off on those until i can at least see one example.


*Nothing wrong with a Siler lock, just needs to be used where Germanic locks are called for.  I'd rather have to patch the lock mortise and re-cut for a Manton or Ketland, etc. than to hang a Siler up there.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 06:42:59 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 06:55:09 PM »
I agree with Wade please don't use a Siler lock or any other Germanic style lock. Find a good English lock. Nothing ruins the looks of a nice E TN rifle than it having a Siler, good lock but not for a TN rifle.

There are some TN rifles in the ALR library, you may have to look through the Southern Guns to find them but they are there.

A good book is "Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley & Greasy Cove" by Dave Byrd    http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22261.0 . You will not find a more knowledgeably man on East TN rifles. ("Greasy Cove" is so named because of the large number of bears killed and dressed in that area of Unico County TN).
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 06:57:01 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 07:36:53 PM »
We are talking flintlocks. The siler mountain lock (with the round tail) in percussion is ok. We like flints
so much, we can't imagine someone building a cap gun.

case42so

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 07:41:12 PM »
Thank you Wade & Dennis.  I have looked at the photos in ALR.  I will find the books you recommend.  Thanks for the tip on the Siler lock,  I will find an appropriate lock for the rifle.  I have been talking about building a Tennessee rifle for the last 20 years.  I will make every effort to do it right.

Brian

case42so

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 07:43:01 PM »
Thanks Flinchrocket, this will be a Flintlock.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 07:53:06 PM »
I agree with Wade please don't use a Siler lock or any other Germanic style lock. Find a good English lock. Nothing ruins the looks of a nice E TN rifle than it having a Siler, good lock but not for a TN rifle.

Helmut Mohr in Germany built about 125 French (Boutet)flintlock pistols
using an English styled lock,my version of the Bailes.Is that internationalism
or what?
Bob Roller

There are some TN rifles in the ALR library, you may have to look through the Southern Guns to find them but they are there.

A good book is "Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley & Greasy Cove" by Dave Byrd    http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22261.0 . You will not find a more knowledgeably man on East TN rifles. ("Greasy Cove" is so named because of the large number of bears killed and dressed in that area of Unico County TN).
Dennis

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 07:58:27 PM »
Great on doing it right.  You're in good company here.

Yes the Greasy Cove book is the best picture book i have on hand.
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Offline Nate McKenzie

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 08:09:12 PM »
Chambers Late Ketland would be a much better lock choice.

Offline rsells

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 10:28:33 PM »
Gary Nobles reference books are a great resource.  I have about worn the covers off of my set.  I look at them nearly every time I build a mountain rifle to reference some characteristic.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 11:42:45 PM »
I use a late Ketland on my recent Tn poorboy and it does look right as if it were made specifically for that rifle. 
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 02:53:16 AM »
A tvm kit would would be my last choice. I'd go with one of Dennis Glazener's kits. If not that than maybe a pecatonica stock. Better yet make it from a blank.
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Offline blienemann

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2015, 11:53:46 PM »
Lately, advice to not use Siler locks on “southern mtn rifles” and “Tennessee rifles” is strongly worded – approaching absolute.  Sometimes it criticizes certain kits and makers, possibly interfering with their reputation, jobs, investment.  We are also told that “Germanic (continental) locks were used in PA, with English locks for the South”.  I respectfully offer another view.  A careful copy or version of a known rifle from the “south” or anywhere is to be appreciated – including the lock, triggers, mounts, screws and pins, shaping and finish.  I also enjoy the newly invented “Virginia rifle”, the “early Woodbury school” with wide butt and iron mounts and preponderance of contemporary iron mounted rifles, even though I’ve not seen an historic basis for same.  They look and feel sweet, and with faux aging, want to tell a story.  All fun.

SMR and Tennessee are broad terms – in geography and time.  The Christian’s Spring gunshop always had English and Germanic locks and barrels on hand.  The Bethabara and Salem shops were supplied from Lancaster, PA and from Cross Creek and Charles Town, so probably had both.  There are good contemporary locks available in both styles.  A rifle made or carried into these southern mountains before 1800 might well have had a Germanic lock, along with brass mounts, etc. – depending on where the makers and parts came from.  Use of iron came later, after local forges were established. 

By 1800 – 1820, most locks in this entire country were English imports, or made here in English style, and Ron Long’s / now Davis’ late Ketland lock and Jim’s late Ketland are examples.  These were small, refined products from the high point of lock design.   By 1840 the locks were larger, plain and round at the rear, and not so refined, like many on these southern rifles.  The same locks appear on Leman Indian rifles and others of this period - Goulcher and many other markings. There are numerous Dickert rifles with “English” locks.  No one makes a lock like these today – unless from castings.  They might be too ugly, and not work as well, as they seem to have been a step backwards, as percussion was taking over.

Quite a few of these southern rifles we see / copy were probably made after 1840, with those large, round tailed locks?  But these are not available, so anything we do is a change.  It’s tough to shape an attractive lock molding on a sweet, slim rifle around that big later lock.  A Siler (or other small lock) is a much better “fit”, and it has been a great lock for many years.  I see a Siler as half Germanic with its faceted pan, slashes at rear and pointed tail, and half English with frizzen spring and external screw, etc.  If the pan is filed round, the lockplate behind slash is lowered to bottom of bevel and the cock is modified a bit, it’s a good earlier English lock.  This should result in a slimmer look.  In any event, it’s no less speculative than so many other things we are doing today?

A lot of fine, slim iron mounted rifles have been made over the years with Siler, Long, Davis, Chambers, Roller, L&R and other locks.  These are a good first build for new folks, or an affordable rifle for family with limited means.  That’s where I started.  Many are generic, are more attractive than certain originals, and that’s OK.   Bob

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 02:52:03 AM »
Lately, advice to not use Siler locks on “southern mtn rifles” and “Tennessee rifles” is strongly worded – approaching absolute.  Sometimes it criticizes certain kits and makers, possibly interfering with their reputation, jobs, investment.  We are also told that “Germanic (continental) locks were used in PA, with English locks for the South”.  I respectfully offer another view.  A careful copy or version of a known rifle from the “south” or anywhere is to be appreciated – including the lock, triggers, mounts, screws and pins, shaping and finish.  I also enjoy the newly invented “Virginia rifle”, the “early Woodbury school” with wide butt and iron mounts and preponderance of contemporary iron mounted rifles, even though I’ve not seen an historic basis for same.  They look and feel sweet, and with faux aging, want to tell a story.  All fun.

SMR and Tennessee are broad terms – in geography and time.  The Christian’s Spring gunshop always had English and Germanic locks and barrels on hand.  The Bethabara and Salem shops were supplied from Lancaster, PA and from Cross Creek and Charles Town, so probably had both.  There are good contemporary locks available in both styles.  A rifle made or carried into these southern mountains before 1800 might well have had a Germanic lock, along with brass mounts, etc. – depending on where the makers and parts came from.  Use of iron came later, after local forges were established. 

By 1800 – 1820, most locks in this entire country were English imports, or made here in English style, and Ron Long’s / now Davis’ late Ketland lock and Jim’s late Ketland are examples.  These were small, refined products from the high point of lock design.   By 1840 the locks were larger, plain and round at the rear, and not so refined, like many on these southern rifles.  The same locks appear on Leman Indian rifles and others of this period - Goulcher and many other markings. There are numerous Dickert rifles with “English” locks.  No one makes a lock like these today – unless from castings.  They might be too ugly, and not work as well, as they seem to have been a step backwards, as percussion was taking over.

Quite a few of these southern rifles we see / copy were probably made after 1840, with those large, round tailed locks?  But these are not available, so anything we do is a change.  It’s tough to shape an attractive lock molding on a sweet, slim rifle around that big later lock.  A Siler (or other small lock) is a much better “fit”, and it has been a great lock for many years.  I see a Siler as half Germanic with its faceted pan, slashes at rear and pointed tail, and half English with frizzen spring and external screw, etc.  If the pan is filed round, the lockplate behind slash is lowered to bottom of bevel and the cock is modified a bit, it’s a good earlier English lock.  This should result in a slimmer look.  In any event, it’s no less speculative than so many other things we are doing today?

A lot of fine, slim iron mounted rifles have been made over the years with Siler, Long, Davis, Chambers, Roller, L&R and other locks.  These are a good first build for new folks, or an affordable rifle for family with limited means.  That’s where I started.  Many are generic, are more attractive than certain originals, and that’s OK.   Bob

Well, no matter how you chew it up and spit it out Siler style flintlocks on post 1800 mountain rifles aren't right.
Quote
Sometimes it criticizes certain kits and makers, possibly interfering with their reputation, jobs, investment.
I would suggest those folks get their act together and do their home work. They would probably be surprised by better sales......
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 03:48:38 AM »
Lately, advice to not use Siler locks on “southern mtn rifles” and “Tennessee rifles” is strongly worded ...   Bob



There is a HUGE difference in pointing out completely irrelevant parts and in "slamming" a company or product.  That's all we're doing here.  Indicating "inconsistencies" with some kit choices.  Who should decide what goes into a proper build but those who study the school, or someone filling up his catalog with kit options (who may not study every single school). 

Would a Durs Egg be right on a Lancaster?  I don't know, but if not and someone is selling a Lancaster kits with Durs Egg locks--shouldn't folks discuss it? Especially HERE where folks are trying to learn to replicate representative arms as history presents them to us? Could be it's a normal "option" for those guns, again I'm not sure but here would be a good place to share these notions. (in a diff't thread yo  ;) )

But i have studied TN for a while now.

A non-English lock only works to make a TN kit build look like a TN KIT build, not like the originals we study.

Matters not to me where you or anybody else buys your parts or parts kit.  There are a lot of fine folks selling them, wish them all the best.  

Best to you as well.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 03:53:35 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 03:55:45 AM »
Like this..........





Davis lock, bobbed the tail.....not Germanic, not a Siler: makes a difference.

Offline flinchrocket

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 07:10:15 AM »
Most of the kits available today have the same parts that they used 35 yrs ago, except where one might
have been discontinued. We have a better selection of locks, barrels, and hardware than we have ever
had IMO. Some of the suppliers of kits have not taken advantage of the parts that are more HC that are now available. Also, most everyone has a computer and can research many different styles of rifles,
where 30 yrs ago you would have had to have a semi load of books.

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 10:53:11 PM »
Case, it sounds like the big nit being picked is the lock. You say "based on," so it sounds as if you have it in mind to make some adjustments to a kit or in-the-white. I'd call TVM and chat with Matt about a lock substitution. He may be able to accommodate you in this matter.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2015, 01:36:27 AM »
... Some of the suppliers of kits have not taken advantage of the parts that are more HC that are now available. Also, most everyone has a computer and can research many different styles of rifles,
where 30 yrs ago you would have had to have a semi load of books.

Be great if one or two of them would take notice of conversations like this.  That's another reason this thread is important, see who is paying attention.  ;) 
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2015, 02:29:27 AM »
... Some of the suppliers of kits have not taken advantage of the parts that are more HC that are now available. Also, most everyone has a computer and can research many different styles of rifles,
where 30 yrs ago you would have had to have a semi load of books.

Be great if one or two of them would take notice of conversations like this.  That's another reason this thread is important, see who is paying attention.  ;) 
It's just a job for some and once the day in the shop is over so is any thought of building guns. Those kind of people don't probably hang out on gun building boards much. 
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2015, 02:45:01 AM »
... see who is paying attention.  ;) 
It's just a job for some and once the day in the shop is over so is any thought of building guns. Those kind of people don't probably hang out on gun building boards much. 

That's no way to live.  Well, if they get enough hassle (from paying customers) over changing out the lock-maybe the kit gets changed eventually.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2015, 03:34:41 AM »
To be honest, I don't think most of the gun buying public knows the difference or even care to know....sad really. It's a price related thing. As long as it's cheap that's all that matters. ::)
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Offline bama

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2015, 04:03:37 PM »
Guys looking back at my own building career which started about 45 years ago I knew very little about what rifles were suppose to look like. I just wanted to build something. I started building CVA kit, one was a 2 piece stock long rifle, a couple of their mountain rifles and a couple of their pistols. Where they PC, not hardly, but I had fun doing them. My next step was the precarved kits. After doing a few of these I realized that pre-inlet stocks had their short comings. I built my first rifle from a blank in about 1984. When I started building from a blank is when I started to do research and began learning what a rifle was supposed to look like. At that time I had the following books for references, Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle, RCA 1&2, Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750 to 1850. These where great and I value the time that I spent pouring over these fine books. Today we have the Internet which makes sharing info much easier.

I said all that to say this. Most of the kit type guns that are available today were designed as was said earlier 35+ years ago and the Siler locks were the best locks readily available so most kits used these locks. Retooling these kits for the different styles of locks that are available today cost money and it may be more cost than it's worth. I say that because by the time I became knowledgable about what a rifle needed to look like I stopped using kit type guns. Also a lot of precarved stocks can be had without the lock inlet so builders that want a precarved stock can go that route if they want to use a different lock.

So let's not slam the companies to hard that are offering Southern style guns with Siler locks. It is a option that the builder makes, and depending on his knowledge and capabilities is what he is going to spend his money on.
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Offline KentSmith

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2015, 06:22:12 PM »
I have to agree with Mike Brooks et al.

If it's your first gun and you want a gun to shoot without risking a lot of money fine.  But since you asked the question I assume you want something passing for an original, then you are going to have to dig to find a kit that meets that requirement.

This is all about price.  If you buy appropriate wood, barrel, lock, and hardware, have a carver pre-carve your stock around your barrel and lock, then do the rest of the work yourself, you are going to be a couple hundred bucks over the generic kit gun price.    A low cost kit gun is an entry level proposition and you will have to make concessions.

Dennis offers a nice Gillespie kit.  David Keck can put a nice southern/TN package together.  Pecatonica likewise I think though never saw one myself.  I am sure Matt might be able to customize one.  Or bettter yet, assemble one from parts yourself.  A lot of us like bama stopped using kits because we learned to do better ourselves.

Offline gunmaker

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Re: Tennesse Rifle
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2015, 07:57:13 PM »
Order your wood without the lock inlet, choose what you want to go on it...It's much easier to inlet lock than move a swamped bbl. back 1/4" or more to match vent hole.   Or buy a blank with bbl. inlet, cut the rest to suit ....Tom