Small Old Lock ID

[Wolfeknives]

I picked up this little lock at a gun show a few years ago. It is missing a screw, which I will replace now. The lock functions very well, and is still very crisp. It looks to me like all parts, including the lock plate were forged, but I may very well be wrong on that. Could this be an American made lock? Likely a pistol lock?

Wolfgang

[WadePatton]

Maybe it's from a double? 

Hope all these sorts of finds haven't been found up.  I see a lock that would fix right up into squirrel or pistol service, possibly on a restoration if one had a need.

[T*O*F]

Judging from the large hole in the center of the lock, I'd say it's definitely one of a pair off a double.  On that type of screw placement a single lock bolt went thru one lock and into the one on the other side.

[gunmaker]

I see a nice early English or Colonial gun hanging off that pretty lock....Tom

[smart dog]

Hi,
I think Wade and the others thinking it is from a double gun have it right.  Its size suggest a double pistol.  It is probably from the late 18th century and not likely made in England or America.  I suspect it could be French or Belgian.

dave   

[Mike Brooks]

It's English. You could probably sell it and get enough for two modern top of the line locks.

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
I disagree.  Why do you think it is English? 

dave

[E.vonAschwege]

Dave, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I think it is English as well.  The most prominently English feature to me is the cock.   It is distinctly English in styling with the tall straight post reinforcing the top jaw, fairing in almost seamlessly with the bend at the gooseneck.  The overall shape of the plate and pan (with its flat rim) to me suggest English, or a copy in that style - potentially Belgian given the look of the internals.  The French round face locks of the same time period as I assume this is from (third quarter 18th century?) are shorter and more "squat", usually with a separate pan screwed on and a much rounder and thicker cock.  The internals are a little less certain to me, but the sear spring with the long arm and hidden screw is a more English feature.  What aspects make you think French/Belgian? 
-Eric

[smart dog]

Hi Eric,
The internals do not look English made, particularly the mainspring.  Also, can you show me any flat-faced English locks with rounded flintcocks?  I've not seen any but there is always a first time.  The early wide pan seems a bit odd when considering the lock has a late flint roller on the feather spring.  Mike is definitive about English but I am not so sure.  I think it is Belgian or at least continental European.

dave

[David R. Pennington]

Curious, why is there a hole just behind the pan fence on the outside (where you would normally see the side plate screw come into the bolster) but no evidence of it on the inside of the bolster?

[Wolfeknives]

Hi Eric,
The internals do not look English made, particularly the mainspring.  Also, can you show me any flat-faced English locks with rounded flintcocks?  I've not seen any but there is always a first time.  The early wide pan seems a bit odd when considering the lock has a late flint roller on the feather spring.  Mike is definitive about English but I am not so sure.  I think it is Belgian or at least continental European.

dave

Dave, though the photo does not show it, the lock plate is in fact slightly rounded. The lighting makes it appear flat. This poor photo shows the rounding somewhat.
Wolfgang

[Mike Brooks]

Hi Mike,
I disagree.  Why do you think it is English? 

dave

Because it isn't anything else!
 Everything about it is english The engraving on the mainspring, the hidden sear spring screw, the shape of the plate, cock, pan, etc. The date of it could be dicey, I would assume pre 1770's untill you consider the wheel on the frizzen spring. of course it wasn't unusual to have things like that added later.
 I believe the engraving was done outside of London proper. The style and execution is a little hinckey and probably done in one of the more provincial towns.
 What I want to know is what it was off of. I'm thinking possible and over/under pistol......
 I'll trundle through the snow later and look at some of my English gun books, they are all out in the shop.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm in the English camp too.  What mystifies me is why the maker didn't drill his lateral lock bolt holes through the bolster rather than the plate.  It must have to do with the kind of double the locks were fitted to.  If it was an o/u as Mike suggests, the bolt would likely pass between the barrels or their breeches, like you see on the for'd sections of a Wender rifle.

[James Rogers]

My guess...... I think it is English. Engraving looks English. The mainspring even looks similar to a signed English lock I had. The interior engraving similar. The height(width) of the plate along with it's roundness and thick and thin border suggests a mid century design but I think it is from the early last quarter of the 18th century. Even with the roller frizzen, I believe this to be a well made but second class lock. This type of old styling was used frequently on carriage pistols of the period mentioned. Today, many classify these fairly well made arms reflecting an older, slightly out of date styling than the period they were made as "livery" guns. Why the English did this, I do not know but the epitome of this occurrence can be seen in serpent side plated trade guns in the 19th century as well as export fowling pieces sent to the Americas in the early 19th century wearing first pattern acorns and other out of date garb, including round locks.
I think it is off an English double carriage pistol from the early last quarter of the 18th century.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

So, let's make a left hand one to match, and do a 'restoration' of the pistol.

[WadePatton]

So, let's make a left hand one to match, and do a 'restoration' of the pistol.

you're going at this "cloning" the most difficult way. 

[JTR]

So, let's make a left hand one to match, and do a 'restoration' of the pistol.

I can do that!  

John

As for the lock, yes, English.

[smart dog]

Hi Wolfknives,
Thanks for the additional photo showing the round plate.  That certainly changes my mind and I have to agree with Mike, John, Eric and the others that believe it to be English made. 

dave

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I thumbed through my english gun books today and this lock proves to be somewhat of an odd ball. All the over/under english pistols I saw seem to have had the mainspring on the outside. I found an example by I Think Bailes that are like the lock in question but the mainspring is on the outside. Unfortunately, only the locks are pictured, not the whole gun.
 I'm sure this lock is from an over/under pistol with two locks, but can't find an example of the whole gun, a little frustrating..... the fact that the main spring is on the inside is interesting, another mystery to be solved.

[smart dog]

Hi Mike,
It is not likely an over-under and more likely a side by side.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

If it were off a S X S the bolt hole would go through the bolster just like any other gun.

[smart dog]

If it were off a S X S the bolt hole would go through the bolster just like any other gun.

Hi Mike,
Not necessarily.  I have a photo in one of my books (Firearms at the Hermitage) showing a much later Joeseph Egg sxs gun with the bolt placed exactly as this one.  However, in this case, perhaps the normal bolt location in the bolster was used by something that threaded into that upper hole. I have no idea what went there.

dave

[Captchee]

If it were off a S X S the bolt hole would go through the bolster just like any other gun.

  I have seen  SXS done both ways  Mike .
As to an over and under . ,   if it is , i would think it would be from a pistol .

 Most O/U rifles  that I have   seen have locks with elongated rear sections of the lock plate so as to  provide room for the  main spring , sear spring and sear .  IE the are  back action locks
I do  believe I have a photo of a O/U  Manton pistol  with   standard locks .
 Ill have to look but I do recall saving a couple photos of it as I  found the locks to be rather odd .  I never could tell from the photo if the front of the locks set to a iron  Mortise   or if the forward section of the lock plate was made  thicker then the main spring so as to allow the locks to be mounted  without the barrels interfering with the spring .

[Mike Brooks]

If it were off a S X S the bolt hole would go through the bolster just like any other gun.

Hi Mike,
Not necessarily.  I have a photo in one of my books (Firearms at the Hermitage) showing a much later Joeseph Egg sxs gun with the bolt placed exactly as this one.  However, in this case, perhaps the normal bolt location in the bolster was used by something that threaded into that upper hole. I have no idea what went there.

dave

Well I have been avoiding this but there is a possibility this lock has been radically altered. That little hole behind the pan could be where a frizzen spring stud once was...I wish I could post some of the pictures of the over/under pistol locks I have come across......that little hole corresponds perfectly with a combo exterior mainspring/frizzen spring mounting hole...
 But , that doesn't really help explain why it is how it is today.