Author Topic: Breech plug / liner safety question (Read 18661 times)

mab7 · « **on:** February 03, 2015, 06:11:10 AM »

Let me begin by saying I am furious...
This is on a Colerain barrel that has less than three dozen shots down the tube. Essentially a brand new, .36 caliber barrel. Rifle is a small siler flinter, and was slow or no fire on every shot. Suggestions from everyone was to install a Chambers White Lightning liner. I ordered a 1/4-32 liner, pulled the barrel and took it with the liner to a 'gunsmith'...

Three weeks later, on the promised complete day, I went to pick it up. By the time I left, it was all I could do to not turn the guy into a popsickle with the barrel. He over-drilled the hole on the 1/4" liner so he went to a 5/16" liner. The liner contacted the breechplug so his answer was to grind back the face of the plug - badly. The liner is still intact, meaning it hasn't been cut back or filed (not installed) either. I blew a fuse, had more than a few choice words that amounted to expect a bill or a summons for a court date.

With the face of the plug squared, the result is shown in the picture. Now for my dilemma... I have asked numerous people around here but want more input. You can see in the picture, there is a definitive gap between the face of the plug and the shoulder. Not so obvious is impact to the hole for the vent liner. The breech plug has seven full threads, the vent liner - where the hole is in direct line with the plug - only has two threads.

This is a .36 caliber rifle, shooting a max load of 30 grains 3F, with normally a 20 - 25 grain load. I have been told everything from it will still be safe to shoot by sealing the threads with PTFE, sealing the threads with lead solder, fill the breech plug / shoulder gap with lead - all the way to buy a new barrel because of the liner threads in the one spot.

So now I am throwing it out here for serious advise... as well as possibly someone who can fix it that knows what they are doing as I really don't have the time or experience depending on the required solution...

mab7 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 03, 2015, 07:30:10 AM »

I have been leaning towards replacing the breech plug. The barrel is a straight 13/16" with what seems to be a basic, plain jane breech plug. Of all the choices, that seems to be the easiest. At least easier than shortening the barrel, moving the ramrod pipes, all that fun stuff. If nothing else, the pins would still line up with the stock... I have added pictures of the plug as well so you can tell me if I am smoking something... or should start smoking something...

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #2 on:** February 03, 2015, 07:40:57 AM »

Sorry for your troubles. It's too late in this case, but in the future the breech plug can be safely notched with a shallow gouge to accommodate the new diameter of the liner, but there's never any reason to grind away the entire face of the plug. I don't know what depth Colerain straight barrels are breeched to, but on their swamped barrels I've had 5/8" plugs before, which is quite deep. I have less worry about the depth of the breech plug face on your barrel as I do the actual threads on the 5/16-32 liner. Your 13/16" .36 barrel will have a wall thickness of .22", minus the depth for rifling. That countersink looks awfully deep, and if there is actually what amounts to just 2 threads on it in the area of the breech plug, I would not install a liner. I don't have any specific metallurgy training, but 2 threads on something like this doesn't sit right with me. If it was my gun, I would cut an inch off the barrel, order a 13/16" patent breech (http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/663/1/PLUG-FH-14-5), then install a 1/4-32 liner in that and inlet a new tang. Still a bit of work, but saves you the trouble elsewhere. There's no reason create a situation where the liner might blow out one day and injure the guy next to you.
-Eric

mab7 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 03, 2015, 08:11:26 AM »

If I take one inch off the barrel and go with the patent breech, the one inch mark falls 3/16" forward of the existing liner hole countersink. That would require a new vent hole which would eliminate the need for the liner - provided it was done correctly. I have no way to do that so it would be up to a gunsmith. If I go with a new plug and deal with the alignment issues, I can do that, but there is still the issue of the liner and the thin thread spot. Two threads in that one area seems 'light', especially on the fine 32 thread...

coutios · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2015, 08:36:17 AM »

Sad.... Now let's see
#1.... Most expensive.. Replace barrel and plug, use all other parts/sights and stuff. Could get a few $$ selling old barrel
#2.... Like Eric says but make a custom plug/tang

$$$$ if you can not do the work

I would NOT USE the barrel with the messed up hole in it.. I also take it there is no way to recover any of the cost from the so called smith..

Best of luck..
Dave

mab7 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2015, 09:08:28 AM »

The barrel is 42" so I have room to 'play'...
I just need to decide how much 'playing' I want to do. I have accepted I now have a project gun on my hands but I need to decide how much of a project it will become...

Rich · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2015, 12:33:43 PM »

You cannot fix the hole for the vent because there is only room for 2 threads. The countersink is way too deep. I would think that the custom plug idea would be the most expensive option. I would replace the barrel and plug. The new barrel and plug will cost about $180. The old barrel can be cut off and tapped for a new plug. I think Track will do it for about $30. It can then be sold. If you try to simply shorten the rifle, you will have to move or replace the nose cap, reshape the ramrod groove to move it back, and you will have to deal with the barrel pins. Then you have to match the stain and finish. The person that screwed up the job should pay you for your net loss.

Robby · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2015, 03:10:33 PM »

My first thought was to do exactly as Eric has suggested.
Robby

oldways · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2015, 03:35:10 PM »

I agree with rich 100%, the so called gunsmith screwed it up not you. Why should you have to go to all the trouble and cost when you paid for something already.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2015, 03:56:02 PM »

Quote from: oldways on February 03, 2015, 03:35:10 PM

I agree with rich 100%, the so called gunsmith screwed it up not you. Why should you have to go to all the trouble and cost when you paid for something already.

The guy may be a "Gumsmif" but has no idea what a drill/tap chart is used for.
A poorly resharpened drill bit will drill oversize and wreck a job like that.
I agree that only two threads,even in a small bore with a light charge is one
that I won't shoot or stand beside of when it's fired.
The best option is to cut the barrel off and have it done by someone who knows
about barrels and threads. I no longer do it but there are others on this list that
are very competent.

Bob Roller

bob in the woods · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2015, 04:10:30 PM »

This brings back many memories of instruments wrecked by so called "Repair Shops". Then I have to tell the folks that it is going to cost twice as much to fix it ….or replace

Two threads on the vent liner is not acceptable in my view. It really comes down to how much you like the rifle. Can you live with altering it i.e. shortening the length?
You don't want to go to a lot of trouble just to end up being unhappy and selling it. I'd lean towards buying a new barrel and plug , and selling the old one. After the sale, you'll probably end up with the same net cost as any other repair solution.

KentSmith · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2015, 05:01:46 PM »

You can't use as is. You can't use the barrel as the hole drilled for the vent has too big a countersink so not enough vent thread security. The breech plug has a gap where the face was ground off. Cut off the barrel to fit a patent breech as Eric suggests (best option), buy new barrel and plug repair and sell the old barrel (second brst option), plug vent hole, weld up patch, get new plug, drill vent hole without liner (third not so good option unless you have someone who can weld. I would chose first or second.

Turtle · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2015, 05:07:37 PM »

This gets me to thinking. On all the guns I have and have built, I put the white lighting as far back as I can and still miss the breech plug. I never considered the margin behind the liner before the breech plug relived area. I have never gone far enough back to loose threads at the rear of the liner hole. What would you consider a safe thickness? Some thin barrels don't have much more than 3 liner threads anyway.
Turtle

Dphariss · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2015, 05:28:59 PM »

Tap the barrel a little deeper for a longer plug then vent in this manner.

This will seal all the threads if done right. The problem with the excessively large hole in the side of the barrel will be mitigated as well.

Breeching the barrel properly is too much work it seems, even for some barrel makers so people just cobble it together and hope for the best..

Good luck with the fix. It will work well if done right.

Dan

mab7 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2015, 05:39:18 PM »

Sleeping on it and letting my blood pressure come down helped a lot. I am thinking cut off and rebreech with a petent breech. That lets me keep the barrel as close to the same length as possible and also resolves the vent issue as the current one would no longer exist. That work will have to be done as I have no means to do it correctly. The impact to the stock should be minimized for everything forward of the trigger. There is no tip to contend with, the forened is all wood. I will have some 'worm holes' for 'character' but I am pretty good at hiding those kinds of things. If I can't hide them, those I can live with. If I am right, the inletting for a similar or new tang would be the biggest impact. That being the case, careful work and sharp tools are the answer there. Taking an objective look at the stock, the buttplate could stand to be fit better also.

Any route I take, there will be some woodwork and browning involved. The browning on the barrel could be better also. If my thinking is correct, it becomes a matter of how crazy I get with the rework...

frogwalking · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2015, 05:43:50 PM »

Someone needs to be the devil's advocate here. The "gunsmith" was brought a rifle with the lock/flash hole,/breechplug already installed. As such, he did not have the option of moving the flash hole further away from the breechplug. His failure to drill the correct size for the 1/4 inch white lightnin liner was his fault, or is this what happened. Perhaps he did drill the right size, but the drill cut into the larger clearance hole for the breechplug, and therefore did not have enough threads to hold the flash hole liner. Drilling for a larger liner certainly did not help the situation. I suppose one could have left the breechplug in place, and originally drilled the barrel and breechplug at the same time, tapped them both and installed the flash hole liner with no issue, except that the breechplug could no longer be removed as it would be locked in place by the flash hole liner. It seems to me that the gunsmith, if he indeed is one, is not familiar with traditional muzzle loaders. Many folks declaring themselves to be gunsmiths today are actually nothing but parts swappers. Some of the fault here lies with the gun owner for taking his rifle to an unqualified craftsman and asking him to do something that was problematical in the first place.

Ideally, the "gunsmith" should have thought this situation out and explained the problems to the gun owner. If he still wanted to proceed, then the barrel and breechplug should have been drilled and tapped for the flash hole liner together, and liner installed. All should have then worked, but as previously noted, the breechplug would no longer have been easily removable. The post that just came in by Dpharis has an answer similar, but less verbose than mine. Check his post out.

Curt Larsen · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:06:10 PM »

Dan has a good alternative idea. You might like to think about the patent plugs used by Pedersoli on European guns. The mass produced Hatfield sold by Cabelas and others has a long plug that is center bored a half inch or so from the face of the plug. I think the Hatfield plug had something like a 1/4" center bored hole in it. A while back I rebuilt a Hatfield using a new Hatfield 7/8" barrel with the long plug. I drilled and tapped the barrel at the proper position for the pan on the better lock I chose to mount on the nice stock I had. I drilled through to the center bored hole, tapped the vent hole for the white lightning plug and installed it. It works fine and has the proper number of threads holding in. The rub on this would be to first find a longer plug and then retap the barrel to add some more threads. If you don't plan on removing the breech plug this would work. (yeah, I know why rebuild a Hatfield?) I had a similar problem to yours on a southern rifle I recently built. In that case I just nicked the face of the breech plug when I drilled it but still had 4-5 threads left over the plug. Now, I am very cautious about locating liners on 13/16" barrels. The thickness of the barrel is pretty thin over the breech plug threads. I now locate the center of the vent liner a full 1/8" of a tad more in front of the plug. That way a 1/4" white lightning should come in right at the face of the plug. I agree with others. This was no gunsmith or machinist.

Dphariss · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:08:38 PM »

Quote from: frogwalking on February 03, 2015, 05:43:50 PM

Someone needs to be the devil's advocate here. The "gunsmith" was brought a rifle with the lock/flash hole,/breechplug already installed. As such, he did not have the option of moving the flash hole further away from the breechplug. His failure to drill the correct size for the 1/4 inch white lightnin liner was his fault, or is this what happened. Perhaps he did drill the right size, but the drill cut into the larger clearance hole for the breechplug, and therefore did not have enough threads to hold the flash hole liner. Drilling for a larger liner certainly did not help the situation. I suppose one could have left the breechplug in place, and originally drilled the barrel and breechplug at the same time, tapped them both and installed the flash hole liner with no issue, except that the breechplug could no longer be removed as it would be locked in place by the flash hole liner. It seems to me that the gunsmith, if he indeed is one, is not familiar with traditional muzzle loaders. Many folks declaring themselves to be gunsmiths today are actually nothing but parts swappers. Some of the fault here lies with the gun owner for taking his rifle to an unqualified craftsman and asking him to do something that was problematical in the first place.

Ideally, the "gunsmith" should have thought this situation out and explained the problems to the gun owner. If he still wanted to proceed, then the barrel and breechplug should have been drilled and tapped for the flash hole liner together, and liner installed. All should have then worked, but as previously noted, the breechplug would no longer have been easily removable. The post that just came in by Dpharis has an answer similar, but less verbose than mine. Check his post out.

Its still sloppy work. Its difficult to find someone who does good work in this respect since they either 1. Don't know how or care. Or 2. Don't realize the seriousness of the work.
If the barrel makers do sloppy work in breeching, as some do, (and few customers know or care) how is the neophyte or some builder with no knowledgeable mentor to guide them supposed to figure it out?
If the "gunsmith" screwed up the barrel to the point of being unsafe then they owes the owner a new barrel. But who would want HIM to do the work?

Dan

Curt Larsen · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:21:12 PM »

I was just thinking about the availability of long breech plugs and wondered if they were really on the market. Then I remembered Steve Bookout's breech plugs as used by Runar in Norway. These guys use a readily available bolt and weld on a new tang to it. Check out Runar's latest pistol build on our site for an example.

stuart cee dub · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:37:08 PM »

I concur with Mr Pharris. Sadly most breechloader trained gunsmiths really don't get black powder.It seems simplistic to them so they think they know what to do.Most are not even good machinists.

I'm sure the thinking is ''it's just blackpowder right it isn't a real gun ,its low pressure and it isn't shot much anyway''.
Everything we do is essentially custom,with a general lack of interchangeability because we are replicating an older technology,more cottage based than factory.
Sorry for your problems.

Had similar breeching to this more than once.
More than a few old rifles were set back at the breech,had a new plug installed lugs repositioned and the overall length trimmed back, even with a swamped barrel.

Dphariss · « **Reply #20 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:42:45 PM »

Quote from: htredneck on February 03, 2015, 05:39:18 PM

Sleeping on it and letting my blood pressure come down helped a lot. I am thinking cut off and rebreech with a petent breech. That lets me keep the barrel as close to the same length as possible and also resolves the vent issue as the current one would no longer exist. That work will have to be done as I have no means to do it correctly. The impact to the stock should be minimized for everything forward of the trigger. There is no tip to contend with, the forened is all wood. I will have some 'worm holes' for 'character' but I am pretty good at hiding those kinds of things. If I can't hide them, those I can live with. If I am right, the inletting for a similar or new tang would be the biggest impact. That being the case, careful work and sharp tools are the answer there. Taking an objective look at the stock, the buttplate could stand to be fit better also.

Any route I take, there will be some woodwork and browning involved. The browning on the barrel could be better also. If my thinking is correct, it becomes a matter of how crazy I get with the rework...

The breech I pictured is the easiest and best fix in this case. The cup should also give a velocity boost as well. If the vent is made and installed as shown the pressure on the vent threads is very low, another plus. But the breech cannot be removed with the liner in place. But this is not an issue. The cup can be made just slightly under bore diameter to prevent the patched ball from blocking the vent if loaded with no powder. 11/32" ball end mill should be the right size. If cobalt or HSS it will work OK in a drill press to make the cup. But use a hard steel point on a rod that masking tape wrapped in two places to bring it to bore size to mark the center of the breech face while its installed. Then drill a small hole short of finished depth then use the ball end mill at slow speed to cut the "cup" to the final depth Drilling the vent hole part way into the side of the breech will give a "stop" point for making the cup. Once this is right install the breech, do the final drilling and tapping for the vent. Install everything and proof test. This was used in some English firearms in the flintlock era.

The comments on using a bolt are valid and probably what I would use. The tang can be then cut off the old plug (leave extra metal) fitted and welded on after the bolt has been filed to rough size and shape.

Dan

Gaeckle · « **Reply #21 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:49:33 PM »

Personally, I'd go with a replacement barrel purchased by the "gunsmith", heck, I'd file a cival lawsuite against him. It looks to me, that he has 'short-breeched' the gun which could be related to enlarging 'headspace' in a bolt action rifle. Both unsafe.

It's a shame that this happened, but other than loping off the affected part of the barrel, I don't see how the hole drilled in the barrel wall could be fixed, whereas the breech plug face could be remedied.

Good luck with this.

mab7 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 03, 2015, 07:26:44 PM »

Mr. Phariss - you have a PM sir!

Scota4570 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 03, 2015, 07:32:19 PM »

Since I do my own work, a patent breech would be my choice. The work would take me several hours. I doubt you could hire it done economically.

The liner chamfer appears to be done with a large drill bit, chatter marks and all. He should have bought or made a piloted chamfer tool. He removed material from the front of the plug... Oh my. He is not a gunsmith, just a hack playing with outhers' safery and lives. I predict he will be sued out of business by a customer that get hurt by his trash quality gun modifications.

Just a guess........does he do a lot of AR-15 assembly and calls it gunsmithing?

I doubt you will be able to convince him he is an incompetent fool. Good luck getting him to pay up for his mistake. Probably best to move on.

We had a guy like this in my area. His work was amateurish. Couldn't drill scope mount holes properly, extra holes, did not understand safety issues. He ruined a lot of guns. He also stayed in business for many years. I never understood how he kept his shop open. My shop fixed a lot of his hack jobs.

mab7 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 03, 2015, 07:53:25 PM »

I have decided to leave the so-called 'smith to his own devices. From what I have, and what I saw, it won't be long before he is done. I would be amazed if he lasts until Easter. Word spreads fast around here. In fact, I already happen to know he is in trouble with the county. Word is that he doesn't understand the necessity of taxes. I'm not going to lose sleep over him and I will get my due... It won't be the first time I have made some awesome purchases at a tax sale!

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Author Topic: Breech plug / liner safety question (Read 18661 times)

coutios

Turtle