Author Topic: Powder horn stain question...  (Read 23596 times)

Offline mab7

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Powder horn stain question...
« on: February 05, 2015, 02:51:45 AM »
Is Minwax wood stain a good product to use to add color to a horn?

Just because I don't have enough aggravation in my life, I am trying my hand at shaping and scrimshawing a powder horn. I am filing an octagon on the spout end and there is a pretty fair amount of dark color in the horn. I was taking a break and looked across the garage and realized I have several cans of dark wood stain. They are the normal various shades of walnut, but I also have a can of ebony. If it will work, I won't have to chase down RIT dye or some other product...

Offline The Original Griz

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 02:44:38 PM »
Many, many years ago I tried that, wood stain, It wont work. Sorry. You probably wont find anything that will penetrate a horn, even Rit and acids are a topical dye and can be sanded off rather easily. The wood stain has to soak in to work correctly and it wont on a horn. It will dry after a couple days, but remains sticky. you wont like it. This is just MY opinion.
OK, Lets get some good horners in here to straighten me out and help this man.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 05:10:31 PM by The Original Griz »
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tuffy

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 03:13:36 PM »
I have used shoe/boot edge dressing under tung oil with some success. It takes a few days to get thru the whole process but it does hold pretty well, and the tung oil can be touched up very easy when scratches happen.

                  CW

Offline Daniel

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2015, 04:47:05 PM »
 I have used Tandy leather dye. Let it dry and buff off to desired color with 4x steel wool.
Then seal with paste wax and buff good.
Daniel     Ecc.4:12

Offline Gun Butcher

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 01:37:03 AM »
Griz, I don't mean to sound like I know very much but I have used Rit dye on a lot of horns and it seems to work and wear pretty good. I do bring it to a boil, turn off the heat and soak a horn as long as it takes to get the color I want. But you are right about sanding it off, it just takes some work if you let it soak very long.
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Offline mab7

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 02:00:00 AM »
Does RIT 'soak up' into the horn?
referring back to my aggravation comment, I am attempting to go from the spout, to a wedding ring, about four inches of octagon (that's a real joy!), another wedding ring, and then the remainder of the body for scrimshaw. I want the spout, small wedding ring and octagon a dark color - very dark brown or black - stopping at the lower edge of the next wedding ring. I was hoping for something more controllable so I can avoid a lot of re-scraping or sanding, possibly making the horn too thin...

Offline Gun Butcher

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 02:07:57 AM »
Skillman who posts on here has had pretty good luck with men's mustache dye you might get him to tell you more about it.
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Offline David R. Pennington

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 02:30:17 AM »
Will aqua fortis work on a horn?
VITA BREVIS- ARS LONGA

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 02:33:24 AM »
I believe Mr. Crosby does some of his horns with Aqua Fortis. 

Forget MinWax stains.  If it cannot soak in, it just sits on top of a material and makes a sticky mess that won't dry. Ask me how I know! 

Hope this helps.  God Bless,   Marc

Offline Gun Butcher

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2015, 03:40:03 AM »
Does RIT 'soak up' into the horn?
referring back to my aggravation comment, I am attempting to go from the spout, to a wedding ring, about four inches of octagon (that's a real joy!), another wedding ring, and then the remainder of the body for scrimshaw. I want the spout, small wedding ring and octagon a dark color - very dark brown or black - stopping at the lower edge of the next wedding ring. I was hoping for something more controllable so I can avoid a lot of re-scraping or sanding, possibly making the horn too thin...

You can tape around the area that you don't want to get dye on. this is not foolproof but will keep most if not all of the dye off of the area that you want to leave white. By dipping the end that you want to stain down to the tape you should be able to control most of the overlap.

Ron
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 03:43:42 AM by Gun Butcher »
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Offline skillman

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2015, 08:29:57 AM »
I use hair dye quite a bit. Just for men beard and mustache dye is a paste so it stays put while it works. Leave it on for around 24 hours. Even hair dye isn't permanent ande can be sanded off.
I use aquafortis on my yellow horns and it works quite well.

Steve
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Offline Curt Lyles

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 03:37:44 PM »
  I tried ferric chloride on a white fire tender horn and it seems to be holdin up pretty well,it has a nice yellow color to it and i like it .Curt

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 05:00:07 PM »
 I would stick with what works for others rather than waste time trying unproven methods. Not saying that there ar not other ways but this is what has worked for me for years and believe me I have tried just about every thing.
AF works well but you have to heat the horn almost to the point of not being able to touch it, just before the blisters. Apply the AF and let it sit, it is going to come out lighter than it looks. Let it sit, I usually wait until it cools, then wash it off. Warning; if you have already rounded your horn the heat will/may bring it back to the original shape, so leave the sizer in it. Also make sure there is no oil on the horn, that included from your fingers, I have also found that if you use a scraped finish and All the scraping is not in the same direction you will get two different colors. If it is not what you want after washing repeat the process until you do, If you just don't like it just scrape it off, I wouldn't worry about getting it to thin. I have never used anything, like a Base, on the horn after the AF. Shoe polish or wax works well although will lighten with time. If you get to much dark shoe polish on it use a Netural wax or floor wax to take off the color.
 RIT dye works well too, once again as explained above with heat. I also use Oil based leather dye, again with heat.
  With whatever you use heat the horn to open its pours, it may not go very deep but it will penetrate a bit.   
  May be more than was asked for.

   Tim C.

PS: I do use other stuff, Tea and Paint being two, but this is the basics. TC

Offline mab7

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 05:57:07 PM »
Thanks everyone!
I have found out that thanks to less than ideal light and eyesight, when combined with the horn color, it would definitely be to my advantage to use some kind of marking / indicating color while I work certain areas. I think this will give me the opportunity to test out various solutions since I can apply them knowing in advance that they will be coming off as I work. Since I already have some, I am starting with leather dye I have.

In case you haven't been able to determine it yet, I am one of those guys that usually has to learn things the hard way! If nothing else, It definitely gives me a better appreciation of what people who normally do, and excel, at these things go through!

Offline J Henry

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 07:12:30 PM »
 ''I am one of those guys that usually has to learn things the hard way!
 That is refered to as a TYPE III learner,,learn by doing, ;)of which Iam one.The person jumping up and down,blowing on his fingers by the sign that Reads "HOT !!!!!! DO NOT TOUCH", ::) Always lead with your head,,can't get hurt that way !!!! Is what my dad always told me, and Scares are just like Birthmarks ,,, but with a story to go with them !!!!!!!!!!!  ;D

seesbirds

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2015, 07:24:29 PM »
I generally use rit dye to dye the end of the horn.  I don't usually do the bodies but on the one I have dyed, I used rit to dye the body as well.  You will have to either try and mask where you don't want the dye to go or sand it off when finshed dyeing.  Just be careful and mask the area you don't want to sand the finish off of.  also, you will have to do your engraving BEFORE you do the dyeing if you're going to dye the body.  This has created difficulties for me in the past but I know others have not had similar issues...

I've used postassium permanganate in the past to dye the throat and spout. You mix it with water, paint it on with a synthetic paint brush (potperm eats hair brushes) and then dry it with a heat gun.  keep repeating until you get the color you want.  the positives there is it allows you to put color where you want it.  The downside is that the color will eventually wear off with handling but it creates highlights which I sort of like the look of.

I've seen aqua fortis used, but never used it myself.  As for hair dye, it sounds like a reasonable thing to use given what horn actually is but the idea of having to leave it oon for 24 hours slows down the process too much for me.

Good luck in whatever choice you make.  We'll be waiting to see the final result.

Offline wpalongrifle

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2015, 04:09:03 PM »
Ive been using leather Dye for years!!! To get the throat dark black, use women's Hair coloring black. Works quickly and lasts. Heating the horn before applying seems to help set the colors better and drying time. Use a hair dryer or heat gun. Coat of varnish at end to seal.
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Offline mab7

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2015, 06:15:21 PM »
I have an entire new appreciation for anyone that does horns! I am determined to do this all by hand using files and chisels, etc. with no power tools. The temptation to break out the Dremel or small sanders is pretty strong but so far I have resisted! Getting, and keeping, the octagon nice and sharp is a real joy!

One thing I have been wondering about, is why are horns finished after sanding or scraping to such a fine, sealed surface? On wood, any staining or other color treatments are done with a more open / porous surface, then taken to the final finish. That super smooth, finished surface is what makes applying any finish so difficult. Is this due to the type of material being worked or some other factor my complete lack of experience with them is causing me to not realize?

Offline skillman

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2015, 06:33:25 PM »
I do my final finish by scraping. I use a knife. I wax the entire thing when all work (such as scrim) is done. Some of the true artists try to get a perfect finish on their "canvas" before doing their engraving on the horn. My feeble scratchin ain't worth the effort. Many of the originals I have examined seem to have been far less concerned with a few scratches or overall perfect finish. Hard to tell after 250 years. One thing for sure is the little facets that remain from the scraping. You can get very fine, pronounced corners and edges from scraping. I do a lot on my guns as well. I know many others who do this as well because you don't get a lot of deep scratches or gouges that have to be removed. Probably as many techniques as Horners.

Steve
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Offline mab7

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2015, 06:53:29 PM »
I know from doing woodwork that when you scrape, it practically eliminates the 'hairs' or fibers that result from sanding when applying a finish. When sanding, a finish will be dull or appear fuzzy if you don't go back over it with a final finer sanding to remove them. Scraping will reduce the need to do that. I normally use metal and glass scrapers both, but have also used single-edge razor blades, my pocket knife and even hard plastic as a scraper/burnisher...

Offline mab7

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2015, 07:29:52 AM »
My wife works at a farm and home type store in the boot department. Picking her up today, I found myself standing next to a whole shelf of Reising 4 oz bottles of leather dye. I figured what the heck, $3 is a pretty cheap test. I mainly want it now to use as a marking dye while working the horn. It's getting filed, sanded and scraped so what do I have to lose right?

The most controllable applicator I had within reach was a Q-tip. I stained 4" of horn in about two minutes to a beautiful dark brown color with absolutely zero over-run. That stuff worked way better than I ever imagined and now I can actually see what I have done. I wish I could speak as highly of my efforts to file an octagon. Wow do I have some fixing to do!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 07:47:35 AM by htredneck »

Offline skillman

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2015, 07:46:30 AM »
Be aware that ultraviolet light (sunlight) will fade leather dye very quickly.

Steve
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Offline The Original Griz

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 12:52:02 PM »
Be aware that ultraviolet light (sunlight) will fade leather dye very quickly.

Steve

Yep, what steve said, so will PP and Chromium Tri-oxide, the sun just loves to fade them and fast...
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Offline mab7

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2015, 05:10:05 PM »
The final coloring dye will be RIT. Everything I have read and seen are just too compelling not to use it.
The leather dye is just being used as marking dye for while I work it. The white, gray and black in this horn seem to mix perfectly in such a manner that it is really difficult to see the results while filing. The dye makes it bery easy to see the results, both while actually filing and after. Kind of like using blue dye when draw filing metal...

geb324

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Re: Powder horn stain question...
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2015, 06:55:10 PM »
Fiebrings Leather Dye Black USMC works great on the spout area you are
talking about. Just wax it after it dries. I have also used one of those Jumbo
black permanent markers. Takes a little longer but it works.