Powder horn stain question...

[mab7]

I can honestly say that using the dye as a marking solution worked like a champ. It did exactly as I had hoped. Unfortunately, I can't say as much concerning my ability to file a clean octagon. In that regard, it was a toral and complete disaster. I can tell you with certainty that it is much easier to file an octagon out of a horn than it is to file one into it!

Moving on to Plan B... as soon as I decide what that is!

[The Original Griz]

try filing a square first and then knock the corners off at a 45.

[mab7]

I have cut more octagons on wood than I can count using that method but for some reason I got in my head it wouldn't work on a horn. No.... I had to be clever. I marked what I eyeballed to be centerline on the horn, then wrapped the lower and upper ends with blue painter's tape. I measured the circumferance of each and marked them off by halfs... Works great on paper right?! Then I took a fine point Sharpie and played connect the marks for the lines.

Five of the flats actually came out pretty good. Flats six and seven twisted and got wider for some reason. The eight one looked like a tornado got hold of it! It was beyond saving so I have already filed it out. I think I will give it a design that somewhat matches a powder measure, pick and brush set I have so all is not lost. I have two more to work with and will attempt the octagon again on one of the others.

Oh the joys of experimenting!

[skillman]

Hey, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. They'd call it a hobby and you wouldn't get paid!! Wait-----------

Steve

[Scout]

On this one I used Rit dye, Golden Yellow with a touch of brown for the main part of the horn, black for the front where it has the step down carving towards the tip. Boil the water add dye, and keep it in for about 10 minutes. Tape the edge of the engrailment where they start so as not to get the black on the yellow part, sand lightly if it bleeds over and re-dye. You won't see the yellow on the black when you re-dye if it goes over. I use an old, tall aluminum coffee pot to do the deed.

[The Original Griz]

I have cut more octagons on wood than I can count using that method but for some reason I got in my head it wouldn't work on a horn. No.... I had to be clever. I marked what I eyeballed to be centerline on the horn, then wrapped the lower and upper ends with blue painter's tape. I measured the circumferance of each and marked them off by halfs... Works great on paper right?! Then I took a fine point Sharpie and played connect the marks for the lines.

Five of the flats actually came out pretty good. Flats six and seven twisted and got wider for some reason. The eight one looked like a tornado got hold of it! It was beyond saving so I have already filed it out. I think I will give it a design that somewhat matches a powder measure, pick and brush set I have so all is not lost. I have two more to work with and will attempt the octagon again on one of the others.

Oh the joys of experimenting!

Just my opinion, and theres guiys on here that are way better versed in horn making than me,
Its because you arent working on a flat object like you would in the wood shop. I used to own a custom cabinet shop also and its a real transition from flat surface of wood to a bent, expanding and twisted surface of a horn. Just my opinion, stop using all the marks, painters tape... just file the square with the contour of the horn, especially the top inside curve (thats where most people make mistakes) and take even amounts off so that it follows the natural lines of the horn, then try to slowly take off the 45's and keep looking at it as you go, not only from the sides but from the tip end to be sure you are holding straight.
oh, one more thing. Try using a rod in your vise and stick the drilled horn tip on the rod so you can spin the horn while you are filing on it. That mau help also. DO NOT file the body of the horn while using the rod, you'll snap the tip in half. I hope this helps and some more experienced horners steps in and helps you also and straightens out my mistakes I just told you:)

[Robby]

I did a little experimenting yesterday and this morning with coloring. Like many of you I sometimes like the area from the scalloping, ring, or transition point of the horn to the pouring tip to be a black or brown color like many original horns. I have used many things over the years and felt that RIT dye was the best thing going, though it would wear off a bit. So using RIT black dye and only rough finishing the 'body' of the horn I put it in the pot with a strong dye and water solution, put the lid on and put a couple bricks in the lid, making it into a somewhat pressure cooker. I let it boil for About an hour, removed it and lit it cool and set up. The body being unfinished I had to scrape and file it back to white, sanding would have taken hours as the dye had penetrated that deep. I finished the body and reboiled it in tea for a time, to get the parchment like color I wanted, installed the cap and this morning to test how good the dye took, I buffed the black snout fairly aggressively on an electric buffing wheel and brought it to a high polish with no loss of color. I think it will wear well even with regular, hard usage. It adds an extra step into the way I make horns but I think its worth it. I hope this helps someone and hope even more they get the same results as I have. Every horn has its own texture and density but I think the process will work with any horn. I did three different horns with the same results. Good luck!!!
Robby

[Tim Crosby]

I did a little experimenting yesterday and this morning with coloring. Like many of you I sometimes like the area from the scalloping, ring, or transition point of the horn to the pouring tip to be a black or brown color like many original horns. I have used many things over the years and felt that RIT dye was the best thing going, though it would wear off a bit. So using RIT black dye and only rough finishing the 'body' of the horn I put it in the pot with a strong dye and water solution, put the lid on and put a couple bricks in the lid, making it into a somewhat pressure cooker. I let it boil for About an hour, removed it and lit it cool and set up. The body being unfinished I had to scrape and file it back to white, sanding would have taken hours as the dye had penetrated that deep. I finished the body and reboiled it in tea for a time, to get the parchment like color I wanted, installed the cap and this morning to test how good the dye took, I buffed the black snout fairly aggressively on an electric buffing wheel and brought it to a high polish with no loss of color. I think it will wear well even with regular, hard usage. It adds an extra step into the way I make horns but I think its worth it. I hope this helps someone and hope even more they get the same results as I have. Every horn has its own texture and density but I think the process will work with any horn. I did three different horns with the same results. Good luck!!!
Robby

 Let's see a Pic or two.

  Thanks, Tim C.

[Robby]

Tim, I'll try to get some pictures up tomorrow.
Robby

[Virginiarifleman]

Don't know if its still around or not but i use to purchase a product called ( old Horn ) it was made to dye horn & antler. try some of the Blackpowder shops to see if they still make it.

[Robby]

Tim, The black snout on the top horn is natural to the horn. The other two, the black snout is applied as I described earlier. Just for the heck of it, before this photo was taken I ran the snouts through the polisher again and can find no areas where the original color is coming through.

Robby

[Tim Crosby]

 That does look good. Nice work on the horns, the file work looks great, nice design both in the horns themselves and the engraving. What are you plans for the Butt on the other two?
 Well done.

  Tim C. 

[Robby]

Thanks Tim. The bee hive horn is to go with a Carolina mountain type rifle that I decided to keep. The caps on the other two will be slightly domed. One is going with a Hudson Valley fowler, it's kind of a redux of one I made years ago, and the Vernum horn is for a Bedford County gun in the planning, with a friend of Hiram in mind.
Robby

[mtgraver]

I  use a natural dye made from osage orange, walnut hulls and butternut hulls. I use the same old $#@* in the pot until the $#@* in the bottom gets too deep and start over. Always bring to a boil before lifting the lid so the mold growth doesn't make me sick. Sometimes I'll add vinegar to reduce the mold forming a little. After it's boiled, turn down to a simmer and toss in the horn, add more osage or butternut as needed to get the color I like.
I have used silver nitrate on spouts in the past and will use ferric nitrate on a flat horn that can't be immersed in my dye bath since it will try to go back to it's natural form. I quit trying to dye the spout since I've never seen an old horn that was artificially treated to be black, all were natural black tipped horn to begin with. Just another hack opinion, lol.
Mark

[Jerry V Lape]

Has anyone tried thin epoxy with aniline dye added?  Probably just adhere to the surface but it might be durable for a darkly colored spout area.  I am not working on a horn at the moment but might try this on scrap before the next horn I do.

[seesbirds]

I recently did a horn that I did some low relief carving at the engrailing edge due to lack of mass at the tip.  I couldn't dye the tip in Rit, because if I had to sand off any of the dye to restore the white below it the white horn would have disappeared.  Instead I used black men's moustache and beard dye with an accelerator added.  After all we're talking about hair here...It worked great!  I painted it on where I wanted it, left it on about 3 hours and wiped off the excess.  It worked famously.  Just be sure you paint it on evenly; oh, and wear gloves...it will stain your fingers like walnut juice and like walnut it will take days to wear off.

[Tim Crosby]

 Mark,
 What did you use as an accelerator, what does it do and why did you think it necessary?

 Thanks, Tim

[skillman]

I too am curious as to what you refer to as an accelerator.  I just use what comes with it.

Steve

[seesbirds]

It makes the dye work faster so instead of having to leave it on for 24 hours you can leave it on 4 hours for instance.  You just mix it in with the dye.   I bought it at  beuty supply store.  it comes in a little packet and ran about $1.25.

[sonny]

How about indelible black ink to make a horn solid black an permanent??? Sonny

[Hungry Horse]

Fiebing’s leather dye from Tandy is NOT sunlight resistant. Lincoln leather dye is sunlight resistant. I use Lincoln black for the spout end of the horn, and after it dries paint the rest of the horn with Lincoln’s medium brown dye, and immediately wipe it off with a damp cloth. Depending on how many times you do this you can control the tone and depth of color. If you are going to scrimshaw the lighter end it should be etched, and inked before you stain it. I usually give it a couple of coats of paste wax afterwards to protect it from wear spots.

  Hungry Horse

[Mike from OK]

I've thought about this a few times. I wonder if the originals acquired some of their "patina" from a lifetime of being handled by hands that were greasy with animal fat patch lube with an added dash of BP fouling... Add some sweat and and animal blood to boot.

Mike

[Jeff Murray]

I also use Fiebings.  You can always reapply the die on the spout as it lightens with use and exposure.  Black seems to take on a blue/black color with wear.   I have found a pure white horn will take on some color with use but that takes a few years.  For scrimshaw, I prefer a very smooth surface.  Even a small ridge can turn your scribe when you are trying to make a tight curl.  I use a beeswax based polish to coat the horns.  Even with that I have found the surface of the horn will eventually start to check with extended exposure.  Good thing there were a lot of cows.