Author Topic: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions  (Read 8539 times)

weedpatch

  • Guest
G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« on: February 07, 2015, 08:32:38 PM »
I have a percussion rifle - G FEDER - stamped on top of barrel - Family stories say it was made somewhere in Lancaster County PA, and that it has been in the family for since 1820 +/-

Any information about G FEDER would be helpful -

I have pictures, but can not figure out how to post them to this message - help with that would be appreciated too

« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 08:56:46 PM by weedpatch »

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 09:00:02 PM »
George Feder. 1820's would be about right. I'm not sure regarding Lancaster, but someone will.
Is the name stamped on the barrel, or engraved? Can you post some pictures here for us to see? Is it an original percussion or flint conversion?

John
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 09:01:37 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 10:01:05 PM »
weedpatch,
Feder, rumored to have been 2 gunsmiths. Father and Son both named George. Father was an Artisan in the Berks County School, Son was an Artisan of the Lancaster School. The last I heard this was just speculation, but maybe some information has been discovered since. I had one with a stamped barrel, it was an attractive rifle with beautifully figured maple, 13 inlays and an exceptional patchbox. The barrel had a fair amount of engraving in fashion with scrolling that I have seen on multiple M. Fordney rifles, the bottom of the barrel was stamped WPAnnabecker and also had a P through an X (christian symbol).
The theory is the elder Feder signed his rifles, usually they were carved in relief or a combination of incised and relief carving (the few early ones I have seen are always in relief at the tang and in a repeated pattern). Continuing with this theory the younger Feder always stamped his Barrels, usually the rifles are incised if they are carved at all and are often fitted with some attractive brass and silver inlays. The engraving (on the rifles I have seen) is nicely executed and the stocks are usually of well figured maple. I believe there are a couple pictured in the library.
It is also possible this was just one Gunsmith who changed his style to accommodate the changing times. I am sure someone with some greater knowledge will post soon. Try to post some pictures, that would help.
 
Buck

Offline Bill-52

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 10:11:35 PM »
Gluckman & Satterlee's American Gun Makers has the following:
Feder, G - Pennsylvania, about 1810. Flintlock Kentucky rifles.

Seller's American Gunsmiths has:
Feder, G - unlocated. Flintlock Kentucky. Possibly George Feather?

Whisker's Arms Makers of Pennsylvania has:
Nothing for "Feder" but..
Feather, George. Gunsmith, 1820-22, Elizabeth Township., Lancaster County (tax lists)

Not sure if this provides much clarity.  But we do know that surnames were often subject to various spellings.

Bill

PS. Just read Buck's response, posted while I was typing.  His information, along with that in the Library, certainly trumps what I found in my reference materials.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 10:25:38 PM by Bill-52 »

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 01:47:16 AM »
There's a Feder in the library here. 
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 03:09:21 PM »
Bill,
Most of what I wrote is pure speculation (2 Gunsmith theory) it could swing in either direction. I have no knowledge of the precise location of Elizabeth Township, it would be interesting to find that it is/was on the Lancaster/Berks line in the vicinity of Brecknock. I think it's possible that he was a traveling Journeyman. It would appear that his details are a combination of Pannabecker, Angstadt, and Fordney. I have seen an earlier piece recently that was purchased off gun broker, it appears to be an earlier rifle signed in script, and carved in relief. It has the typical carving to the rear of the Tang and the carving at the Cheek mirrors the carving of the 1st Feder rifle in "Thoughts" (Kindig).  I find Feders work appealing, but not in the "Grandmaster" category. Pictures would be a help, a general date of production can be estimated if we can see the rifle.
Buck
« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 03:45:23 PM by Buck »

Offline Bart

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 04:37:33 PM »
Where is Feder listed in the library?

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
John Robbins

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2015, 09:05:36 PM »
Thanks John for posting the photos. The second rifle is the rifle I owned for a while, I would guess it was made around 1820 - 1825 (leaning more towards 1825). The first I would estimate to be around 1829 - 1835. The architecture is different from the first to the second. There are more of these "second type" around which kinda fuels the 2 Feders theory. I will try to persuade the owner of the early Feder to post some photos of his rifle.
Buck
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 01:38:43 AM by Buck »

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2015, 11:25:42 PM »
From the pictures, it looks like it could be two different gunsmiths. Maybe father and Son, two brothers, or a single guy changing style with the times? Good question.

Hopefully Weedpatch will post some pics of his gun.

Lot's of interesting brass on that second one, Buck!

John
John Robbins

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2015, 01:37:41 AM »
John,
It was a very nice gun, unfortunately I had to sell it. The sale permitted a better rifle.
Buck

weedpatch

  • Guest
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2015, 02:50:47 PM »
Thank you all for the feedback.  Schreckmeister is going to post pictures for me - I'll be interested in hearing more once you have a chance to see the rifle.

Offline Shreckmeister

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3808
  • GGGG Grandpa Schrecengost Gunsmith/Miller
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2015, 03:30:41 PM »








« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 03:33:20 PM by Shreckmeister »
Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2015, 04:45:14 PM »
A classic 1825-40 Lancaster pattern trade rifle, very close to J J Henry Lancaster and similar rifles made by various smiths for the western fur trade.  Very nice rifle, all the details are still there.  These were built to meet a pattern, and sometimes were made by smiths from York (or Berks Co?) to meet this style, even if located somewhere else.  So though this is pure Lancaster, it does not prove that Feder was located there when he stocked it.  Bob

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 02:23:32 AM »
I don't know if I would classify it as a typical or classic pattern rifle for the western fur trade as I am not an expert on that subject. Its a late Feder probably around 1825 - 30. I would guess it was originally flint, the scroll work on the side plate should be mimicked on the barrel. All of the engraving is definitely by his hand but the stock architecture is hard to see due to the angles of the pictures. If there was 2 Feders, this would be by the later. The "Pure Lancaster" label is in error, there elements of both schools in this rifle.  Nice in the black condition, enjoy.
Buck

Offline bama

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2173
    • Calvary Longrifles
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2015, 06:49:50 AM »
Buck i am in agreement with you that there were two G. Feder's. I have one of the earlier gunsmiths rifles and it is relief carver around the tang and has some nice incise carving behind the check piece. The research i have done leads me to believe that the Feders came into Pennsylvania about 1715 and settled in Berks and later in Lancaster. I believe the early G. Feder was born abt 1750 and that the younger gunsmith is related possibly a son but he may be a nephew. The name has been spelled many ways in Pennsylvania
Records, Feder, Fedder, Feather, Fedar. I belive them all to be related and branches from the oringal group that arrived in the early 1700's.
Jim Parker

"An Honest Man is worth his weight in Gold"

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2015, 07:53:37 AM »
Weedpatch - I think your first several lines are correct, or close to it.  You were given a good story, and you have a fairly complete rifle, great for study.

Re one or two gunsmiths, there were many Vetters, Fetters, Feders and Feathers as blacksmiths, smiths and gunsmiths all over PA.  I see reference to several by 1750’s at Bethlehem and nearby, others already at Lancaster, some in Berks Co, etc.  Some may have been locksmiths, and at least one locksmith from Bethlehem married into the Fetter family at Lancaster.

My comments were not addressed to the family or who made what, but rather this particular rifle.  It’s a typical trade rifle from that period.  American Fur had J D Gill provide a pattern, and other gunsmiths made hundreds of copies for about 15 – 20 years.  About the only variation was the patchbox finial and name on barrel.  Locks might have changed slightly, but the pattern was pretty consistent.  These are generally referred to as American or Lancaster pattern rifles, vs the English pattern.  The mounts on this rifle are close or identical to those on Henry and other makers, might drop right in.  Stock might be artificially striped?

Buck, I agree this lock might be later, good chance it was flint, and hard to see much at these angles.  The squiggle engraving and stars or dots might be on barrel, sometimes on ramrod pipes.  I’ll stand by pure Lancaster – but I meant to connect that phrase to the pattern trade rifles.  Pull up pics from Hanson, Kauffman or Whisker, museums, collections and other sources.  Having studied and built copies of many of these over the years, what is same and what varies becomes apparent – I think!  Nice old example.  Humbly, Bob

Offline Buck

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • A.F.A.M. # 934, Trinity Commandry #80
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2015, 02:34:57 AM »
Jim,
I was referring to your rifle as it is a good example of an early Feder. Hope to see you in a couple of weeks.

Bob,
Welcome to the forum (excuse me for not stating that in the prior post). I would be interested to see what info you have regarding Feder, I don't agree with the pure Lancaster label because of the overlay of details from both schools in this or these individuals rifles. I would like to hear more.
Interested,Buck

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: G Feder Percussion Rifle - Lancaster - Questions
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2015, 05:29:36 AM »
Check Whisker's Gunsmiths of Lancaster County, bottom of page 91 for a George Feder rifle with same patchbox finial.  Seven more G Feder trade rifles in Chandler's Patchbox book, two with same finial. This finial outline may be a signature for some of his trade rifles.  Several on Phila pattern trade rifles with curved comb have curved sideplates to match the stock profile, while Weedpatch's rifle has straight sideplates to match the straighter stock lines of his rifle.

J J Henry and little brother W3 spent years in Phila stocking rifles for trade, treaties and other contracts, often with the curved combs and pineapple patchboxes common there, same as Deringer and Tryon.  But the customer was always right, so if rifles were ordered to conform to a Lancaster or other pattern, they were happy to follow the dollar, wherever they had located their shop.

We like to think of these men as rugged individualists who always put their own ideas into their work, and hope we can see a straight line evolution.  But if asked to copy a pattern from another time and place, they usually took the work, and it messes up our plan.

Work for local customers may have more often followed local norms.  Bob