Author Topic: Need info on gun  (Read 9253 times)

Offline bob hertrich

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Need info on gun
« on: January 16, 2015, 10:38:12 PM »
This gun has been in my family for many years. Nobody here has any information about it. We live in southern NH so I assume it came from this area. It is a smooth bore approximately 68 cal with a 50 1/2 inch barrel and walnut stock.







Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2015, 10:47:40 PM »
I love these kind of finds!  Sure looks Dutch to me, or at least Dutch in style - could have been stocked here or overseas.  Can we get a closeup of the lock?  What's the diameter of the breech?  I've seen that sideplate before, but have to dig through some books to find it - I'll check later tonight when I'm not supposed to be working.  I can't tell you much more other than I would guess early to mid 18th century.  Perhaps even earlier with that third lock bolt in the tail.  Thanks for sharing!
-Eric

Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2015, 10:51:47 PM »
Meant to ask - is the stock cut back, or does the muzzle have a lug for a bayonet? 
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2015, 02:17:38 AM »
Evon, the stock is not cut back with no bayonet lug. I will try to get a picture of the lock thru Photobucket.

Offline longrifle

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 09:38:55 PM »
That one is interesting

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 08:04:19 PM »
Longrifle, Any thoughts on its origin.

Online smart dog

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2015, 09:02:54 PM »
Hi,
I agree with Eric.  I think the hardware is Dutch possibly reused from a miltary gun, hence the hole for the sling swivel.  The stock is fairly light colored walnut, which might indicate European walnut rather than American black walnut.  However, even if it is European walnut, I am not sure that precludes an American restock. 

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2015, 10:17:15 PM »
I was looking through some old photos I've saved from auction sites and found similar iron mounted Dutch pieces - entirely plain, usually very rusty and broken.  Last year at Dixon's a fellow came over and showed me a buttstock with iron hardware very similar to this, but with more extravagant lobes on the buttplate return and triggerguard.  I hope he shows up again, as I wanted to take measurements of it.  I'd love to find a relic like that! 
-Eric
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 12:57:44 AM »
Kind of looks like a Hudson Valley Fowler....from the little I see and know. How long is the barrel?

Offline longrifle

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 06:39:55 AM »
That is interesting post more photo's of it.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 05:54:29 PM »
He said 50 1/2"

Oh if only it could talk!!
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 05:55:23 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2015, 04:23:32 PM »
Like Dave, I wonder if it is a European gun.  Either way a grand heirloom of our history.
St. Louis, Missouri

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2015, 06:53:22 PM »
I have taken it apart looking for any markings and there are none. Would it be something that could be restored and if so would it destroy its historic value.

Offline JTR

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2015, 07:18:14 PM »
Bob, I think what this gun could use is not a restoration, but to be stabilized.

That would be gluing the loose pieces of wood back to the stock, but without trying to close up the crack completely and invisibly. It could also include adding some bits of supporting wood fitted in the interior to help support the exterior, if needed. The loose rust on the metal could be knocked back a bit, but the underlying patina retained. The missing and incorrect screws, and the missing RR entry thimble could be replaced, and the gun would be good to go for another couple hundred years!

As it is, the value is minimal, other than to your family. Stabilized, it won't be worth much more, but will be with your family much longer!

I've done this to other original rifles and the owners have been pleased with the results.

John   
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Offline E.vonAschwege

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2015, 10:40:27 PM »
Bob,
  I agree with JTR in regards to stabilizing/conservation, more than full out restoration.  Doing good quality conservation will not hurt the value one bit, and will ensure that the piece lives on for another couple hundred years in your family.  As JTR suggests, repairing severe cracks that can worsen, knocking back the loose rust scale without damaging the patina, and a new entry pipe would protect the wood in that area.  I wouldn't add new pieces of wood behind the tang or around the lock - the piece looks great as it is.  A lot of collectors use Renaissance Wax, a "museum quality" paste wax that doesn't harm the existing finish or patina, and can be removed.  Lots of guys use clear Kiwi shoe wax too. 
-Eric

Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2015, 07:20:12 PM »
Would the Fusil Tulle steel ramrod entry pipe from TOW be OK. I could adapt it to the exiting inlet. There are 3 other pipes missing also. How would one remove the rust without hurting the patina? 

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2015, 10:37:23 PM »


I am cleaning the gun up a bit with Balistol and fine steel wool. Taking it apart I found some marking's on it. The drawing is my sketch of the marking on the barrel. The locks marking is not that well defined but I have added them anyway. I don't know if this will help defining the gun more precisely.

Offline JTR

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2015, 12:37:00 AM »
How would one remove the rust without hurting the patina? 

Keep doing what you're doing. Easy does it.

The rust on top is just rust. The rust underneath is Patina! Remove the one and leave the other.

John   ;D
John Robbins

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2015, 06:39:33 AM »
JTR, What would be a good glue to repair the cracked wood?

Offline JTR

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2015, 07:19:53 PM »
Bob,
I use Titebond Translucent wood glue, and Elmers Woodglue Max. But actually just about any good quality glue will work. To get a good solid glue join, first you need to really clean all the gunk and crud out of the area you want to glue. If the new glue is clinging to old dirt and gunk, the join won't hold for long.
If the wood pieces you're gluing can move or shift, be sure you know exactly where they belong before you glue them. Once you're ready to glue, squirt a bit in and work the glue around to fill in all the little nooks and crannies and cracks, then squeeze everything together, and use rope, string, rubber bands, etc to clamp everything in place while the glue dries. Be careful and don't put too much glue in the crack, and clean off any excess before it dries.

John
John Robbins

Offline bob hertrich

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Re: Need info on gun
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2015, 03:45:03 AM »
John, thanks for the information. I will perk it up a bit and give it a coat of renaissance wax per Evon. Hopefully it will be good for an other couple of hundred years