metals for hammers etc

[longcruise]

What would be a good choice of metal to make percussion hammers and tumblers /sears?  Are there any sources of scrap metals that would be suitable?  Would it be better to heat treat carbon steel or maybe case harden something low carbon?

[44-henry]

Plain old 1018 mild steel would be fine if the parts are casehardened afterwards, and, in my opinion anyway, would be a better choice than high carbon steels. You would of course need to pick a high carbon steel for the springs.

[Dphariss]

What would be a good choice of metal to make percussion hammers and tumblers /sears?  Are there any sources of scrap metals that would be suitable?  Would it be better to heat treat carbon steel or maybe case harden something low carbon?

I would be making parts for an underhammer.

Using scrap can be more work than its really worth.

Properly casehardened 1018 will work for sears and tumblers, it will work really well, casehardened, for hammers and other parts. Its a common steel and can be bought from suppliers annealed in rolled or ground finish in various shapes and sizes. Another option for sears etc and even springs is O-1. Its easy to heat treat and has good wear characteristics. But it must not be casehardened and requires a quench in a 120-140 degree light wight oil. Lighter than SAE10. For sears and tumblers I would draw back to a "straw" color. I would not use O-1  for hammers or other parts that are better made of low carbon steel then cased.

Dan

[Rolf]

Keep us posted as you go along on UH build, we likes pictures.....I've made a few UH actions and used mild steel for most parts and spring stock from ole' Dixiegun works.   Kasenit tgr & sear noses.......good luck...Tom

Not allowed to post underhammers on ALR. I've tried and the moderators delete them even though they are muzzelloaders.  Runestav posted a very nice build on one he made and thats been deleted. Want to make one myself, sometime in the future and it would have been nice to ask for help here. But that is the rules.

Best regards
Rolf

[oakridge]

If longcruise deletes his last sentence - problem solved!

[longcruise]

Deleted last sentence. 

Don't want to undermine the board's mission statement.  Hopefully the discussion will be allowed to continue as it could relate to period correct longrifles.

I appreciate the suggestions.  Apparently 1018 is th way to go.

[Dennis Glazener]

Not allowed to post underhammers on ALR. I've tried and the moderators delete them even though they are muzzelloaders.  Runestav posted a very nice build on one he made and thats been deleted. Want to make one myself

I think I have explained this before but for those that haven't heard, the reason I stopped allowing underhammer's had nothing to do with antique underhammer or replica's of same. It had to do with the appearance of non-traditional underhammer that just, in my opinion, did not fit the spirit of a traditional LongRifle forum. We had been discussing a rule change to side locks only before Runestav started his tutorial on his underhammer rifle. It was an awkward time to be changing the rules so the change was delayed until the completion of his rifle. I am sorry if it offended members but a line has to be drawn at some point. I made the decision to restrict the forum to sidelocks only.

For those that have followed this from since the beginning, the original goal was to restrict it to LONGRILES only which excluded many of the guns we allow today (allowed due to "mission creep"). I decided we needed to more closely follow the original intent of the forum.
Dennis
 

[Metalshaper]

Longcruise,

 On my locks, < of the non-uniform hammer rotation varieties > I have used mild steel and Kasenite
hardened them. two treatments over the tumbler/notch area and they have been good to go. IF you have any questions you think I could help with, shoot me note?

my last 3-4 have been vertically challenged and the ones I'm starting on go all sideways

I think Mr. Glazener allows the others to be seen/discussed  in the "over the Fence" forum, if I'm not mistaken?
Please clarify if I'm wrong!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[JCKelly]

I more or less agree with Phariss, but I'd like to point out that "properly casehardened" means some number of hours in a red-hot pack of wood charcoal/bone charcoal/charred leather. Kasenit, which we all have used, just puts on a very, very light file-hard case. Great for keeping your engraving from wearing out, will do no harm on hammers. But, IMHO, is too shallow for decent life with tumblers and sears.

My first experience with metallurgy was the local blacksmith handing me a can of Kasenit, pointing me to the forge fire & telling me how to harden the frizzen on my  $5 Miller Bedford flint lock. It sort of sparked the few times I used it.

Kasenit is now banned, Our Gov't says the potassium ferrocyanide in it is bad for you (if you read the lable on your grocery store brand of salt you may find it there as an anti-caking agent).

There is a modern replacement for Kasenit, I personally know nothing about it or how it works. 

[Metalshaper]

But, IMHO, is too shallow for decent life with tumblers and sears.

The tumbler on my 'Miss Muley' has been in operation since I built it. She is my main shooting gun, even if it's a .36.
I have experience no wearing out or wearing through of the kasenite treatment?  But I'm a rookie, compared to most of you.. so I'll defer to your experience..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Bob Roller]

I more or less agree with Phariss, but I'd like to point out that "properly casehardened" means some number of hours in a red-hot pack of wood charcoal/bone charcoal/charred leather. Kasenit, which we all have used, just puts on a very, very light file-hard case. Great for keeping your engraving from wearing out, will do no harm on hammers. But, IMHO, is too shallow for decent life with tumblers and sears.

My first experience with metallurgy was the local blacksmith handing me a can of Kasenit, pointing me to the forge fire & telling me how to harden the frizzen on my  $5 Miller Bedford flint lock. It sort of sparked the few times I used it.

Kasenit is now banned, Our Gov't says the potassium ferrocyanide in it is bad for you (if you read the lable on your grocery store brand of salt you may find it there as an anti-caking agent).

I still have some Kasenit and the new stuff which is a flour fine powder is called Cherry Red.
It seems to work. Costs more than Kasenit did. Some guy had Kasenit for sale in small bags at Frienship
last Fall for $20 for a table spoon full.Gouging or WHAT?

Bob Roller

There is a modern replacement for Kasenit, I personally know nothing about it or how it works. 

[Bob Roller]

But, IMHO, is too shallow for decent life with tumblers and sears.

The tumbler on my 'Miss Muley' has been in operation since I built it. She is my main shooting gun, even if it's a .36.
I have experience no wearing out or wearing through of the kasenite treatment?  But I'm a rookie, compared to most of you.. so I'll defer to your experience..

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

It might be the material you used on Miss Muley had a tendency to water harden and the Kasenit was a booster that improved it.

Bob Roller

[Metalshaper]

It might be the material you used on Miss Muley had a tendency to water harden and the Kasenit was a booster that improved it.

Bob Roller

Mr Roller,

 I wouldn't 'think' angle iron would  water harden, but honestly never considered that?

 the old weld shop at work would keep out weird drops for me. I'd pick them up as I went through the plant taking
samples and such. the hammer on my Miss was carved out of a section of HR angle that was 2"X2" X .375"
I cleaned off the scale, wiped it with some Prussian blue oil paint.. let that dry then scribed the outline on,
using a pattern I made..  used a baby drill press, chain drilling, hacksaw , a band sander and files to complete it.
one full body Kasenite, and the second held over the tumbler only. hammer shank was held  with grips using aluminum pieces  fitted over as heat sinks, the head was also wrapped in wet cloth.. Seemed right at the time???

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Bob Roller]

It might be the material you used on Miss Muley had a tendency to water harden and the Kasenit was a booster that improved it.

Bob Roller

Mr Roller,

 I wouldn't 'think' angle iron would  water harden, but honestly never considered that?

 the old weld shop at work would keep out weird drops for me. I'd pick them up as I went through the plant taking
samples and such. the hammer on my Miss was carved out of a section of HR angle that was 2"X2" X .375"
I cleaned off the scale, wiped it with some Prussian blue oil paint.. let that dry then scribed the outline on,
using a pattern I made..  used a baby drill press, chain drilling, hacksaw , a band sander and files to complete it.
one full body Kasenite, and the second held over the tumbler only. hammer shank was held  with grips using aluminum pieces  fitted over as heat sinks, the head was also wrapped in wet cloth.. Seemed right at the time???

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

The concrete slab of our front porch is reenforced with angle iron and I cut some of it with a good hacksaw and it was tough material.I don't know if there are specs on it or not but I have heard of sears being made from it in years past.

Bob Roller

[Metalshaper]

Mr Roller,

 Admittedly, if I had been thinking the steps through, instead of T.L.A.R ( That Looks About Right ) I would have
kasenite hardened the tumbler first and then the entire hammer as the second treatment. This was my first attempt at building any type of lock, so it was certainly a learning process! Laurie Fenton, from NSW Australia, was a member of the old MLML forum and he contacted me offering some guidance and encouragement. He pointed out a few of the technical aspects that cleared up the problems I was having. 

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[Dphariss]

I more or less agree with Phariss, but I'd like to point out that "properly casehardened" means some number of hours in a red-hot pack of wood charcoal/bone charcoal/charred leather. Kasenit, which we all have used, just puts on a very, very light file-hard case. Great for keeping your engraving from wearing out, will do no harm on hammers. But, IMHO, is too shallow for decent life with tumblers and sears.

My first experience with metallurgy was the local blacksmith handing me a can of Kasenit, pointing me to the forge fire & telling me how to harden the frizzen on my  $5 Miller Bedford flint lock. It sort of sparked the few times I used it.

Kasenit is now banned, Our Gov't says the potassium ferrocyanide in it is bad for you (if you read the lable on your grocery store brand of salt you may find it there as an anti-caking agent).

There is a modern replacement for Kasenit, I personally know nothing about it or how it works. 

A good case for gun parts is about .005. For this the maker needs "professional help".
At least according to a friend who is a "professional".
Dan

[Dphariss]

Also with a case .005 or so deep I would tend to draw the part back at 350-375 since that depth might give brittle edges on sear noses and the edges of tumbler notches.

Dan

[Dennis Glazener]

I think Mr. Glazener allows the others to be seen/discussed  in the "over the Fence" forum, if I'm not mistaken?
Please clarify if I'm wrong!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

The rules about sidelocks only also applies to "Over the Back Fence"
Dennis

[44-henry]

Kasenite is good for basic hardening of screws and such, but likely will not yield very deep case depths just by using the hand torch method. Based on a time temperature chart you would need at least one hour at 1450F to achieve .005" case depth. Penetration depth in a given time will increase with higher temperatures, but you basically are going to need a furnace or a forge to maintain those temperatures for the correct period of time to get decent penetration. 

[blacksmith99]

I learned long ago that the angle iron used in bed frames is high carbon. Not sure what it is, but at least the old ones were pretty hard on a hacksaw.

Regards,

Matt

[olie]

I have a 32 caliber  long rifle that has a side-slapper lock. I think that I may have made the lock out of  mild steel. I case harden the hammer and sear with propane torch. I have shot this rifle for about 30 years and it still works o.k.
     
        Olie