Suitable Lock Style

[greenchile]

So another of  many questions what lock style or styles would be suitable for a Lehigh rifle?

Greenchile

[Stophel]

A Siler-type German lock was commonly used on Lehigh rifles of the 18th century.   Later (19th century) Lehigh guns, like everyone else, often used the common "hardware store" English type locks with all the hideous roll marks and engravings, which are not really available now as reproductions, unless you can manage to get something from The Rifle Shoppe or someone.

[greenchile]

 

Stophel,

Any size preference?

[Stophel]

Size preference, meaning like with a Siler lock?  LARGE.  Bigger is always better.  A small lock can make a rifle look too fat, even if it is slim by measurements.  You end up with way too much wood showing around the lockplate with a lock that is too small.  

A MUCH modified large Siler lock on my last Lehigh from a few years ago.  Nobody liked my top jaw screw, I think it was neat...   

[greenchile]

Thanks

[greenchile]

Has anyone ever built  a Siler lock from one of their Kits? If so did it turn out well?

Greenchile

[Stophel]

I've built a bazillion Siler lock kits, but I've cursed that d--n O-1 steel that they make their tumblers and sears out of every time.

One can be made as good as the maker can make it.     A good mechanical familiarity with flintlocks is required to really do a good job of building a lock.

[retired fella]

Has anyone ever built  a Siler lock from one of their Kits? If so did it turn out well?

Greenchile

I have been shooting Siler for years.  Just built my first kit last year.  A bit labor intensive but worth it.  Sparks like a Zippo lighter.

[E.vonAschwege]

Greg,
  Unless you have some background in drilling/tapping, and understand the geometry of tuning a flintlock mechanism, I would go with a fully assembled lock for your first build.  After you learn what makes a good flint lock work well, then go for a Siler kit - they're great quality and can be made into outstanding locks, depending entirely on the makers skill and patience.  Give Chambers a call and they'll be able to help you decide what's best.  
-Eric

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I used Chamber's 'Late Ketland" on my last Lehigh rifle - my Jacob Kuntz rifle.  No matter which lock you use, keep your vertical dimension through the lock as narrow as you can...barrel + ~5/32" web + 5/16" ROD HOLE + < 1/8" wood along the bottom.

[Acer Saccharum]

I used Chamber's 'Late Ketland" on my last Lehigh rifle - my Jacob Kuntz rifle.  No matter which lock you use, keep your vertical dimension through the lock as narrow as you can...barrel + ~5/32" web + 5/16" ROD HOLE + < 1/8" wood along the bottom.

I understand what you mean, Taylor, because I've built a number of guns before. Someone new to the hobby may not have a clue what you're talking about.

It's really hard to build from the www, it's pretty hard to build from plans and books until you've got several builds under your belt. The best is to get some person to person teaching, and to look at original guns wherever possible. There is no single source for all the info you need. It takes patience and perseverance to build one of these things. You will get it wrong once in a while, so you also have to take it easy on yourself. This should be fun.

[greenchile]

Well I finally made a decision and ordered a Ketland lock but it's backordered hope to get it soon.

Greenchile

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Interesting observation Tom.  What seems routine to me could be a mystery to someone new to the craft.

Always, when you are planning a build, make drawings, and blue print type plans - full scale.  Then you will see the relationships that will shape your rifle.  This has been discussed and outlined before on this site, but to re-cap, I start with a sheet of what here is called "Bristol Board"...a white sheet of heavy card stock.  Sometimes I join several lengthwise, if I want to draw the entire gun, but usually, I just draw out the butt stock forward until the rifle runs off the paper on the right.  I draw the barrel in profile with its breech plug.  Then I lay the lock plate over the barrel drawing so that the pan is correctly oriented  with the location of the vent.  Now I can start drawing in the profile of the wood, starting at the breech along the wrist and comb.  The drop I need at the comb and heel is marked on the paper, and lines are joined.  I can also now draw in the bottom line of the stock.  Here's where the details I listed in my previous post come in.  And so forth...

[Acer Saccharum]

Good point on the drawing, Taylor. Eric von Aschwege draws his guns, and ends up with drawings others can use to build their own guns.
I used to, and don't anymore.

A drawing can be used to sort out SO MANY issues ahead of time.
1) When you draw the barrel in full scale, and then plan the touch hole to position the lock, you see where you can place your lock bolts.
2) You can also figure out where your thimbles go ahead of time, so your barrel lugs don't end up in the wrong place.
3) curve of the tang: bend it to fit your drawing. It will be close enough so you just file stock and tang together when the time comes.
4) locate trigger in relation to the sear
5) locate tang bolt into trigger plate

Somewhere, in a time long long ago, Mark Elliott posted a fabulous blow-by-blow sequence of a gun build.

[chrisdefrance]

Re: Suitable Lock Style

Tom,

  About a week ago, I had reviewed again, the very post that you were looking for. The sequence for construction is an excellent start for review for anyone. Mark did an excellent job on this one.

Under Gun Building / Mark Elliott’s Simple Sequence for Building a Rifle - Expanded

Mark Elliott's Simple Sequence for Building a Rifle - Expanded
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=30082.0
« on: March 08, 2014, 06:05:16 AM »

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Using this information to help answer your original question,  once you have come to a decision on the lock style, and that will be based upon original and contemporary examples, and photographic reference material, the rest of this comes into play.

[kaintuck]

ok....what your after is, well........think 'broomstick' handle size....

then put a lock on it.............and a barrel IN it..........

marc n tomtom

[tlallijr]

I'm currently at the beginning stage of a Lehigh rifle build so this thread was started at the perfect time for me, I have received my profiled stock from Dave and am using the advise posted here about drawing a plan. I've started the plan on paper and am also using the actual stock to put the plan together. Anyhow, I have been printing out the actual size lock photos from Track of The Wolf and taping them on the stock in the position needed then taping a paper clip for the trigger location. When I use the appropriate lock suggested it feels like I'm really reaching for the trigger and my thumb is very high on the wrist and is encroaching on the sights. So far it seems my best choice may be an early Ketland lock, it moves the trigger back a 1/4" which feels a little better although a little more could really improve the feel. So my questions are, how inappropriate is an early Ketland lock for a lehigh and is there any other solutions to move that trigger back a little more ? Maybe bending the sear arm back a little or some other tricks....
I will include some photos. Thanks, Tony

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If you are reaching for the trigger, take some off the butt end - move the butt plate forward.

This stock has only about 1 3/8" (if that) of drop at the comb, and a long flat wrist, so your thumb is going to feel like it's hitting your nose.  This rifle will need to be shot in a 'heads-up' posture - not crawling the stock like a scoped rifle.  Bring the rifle to your eye, rather than the other way around.

The lock looks good, but tip it up a bit at the front so the forward lock nail passes through the centre of the plate, and the tail is below the centre ling of the wrist.  Just a very little will make a huge difference there. This is why we draw it out first - diminishes the chance of unpleasant surprises later.

[tlallijr]

Taylor, thanks for the fast reply. Just seeking some opinions on possibly reshaping the tail of the lock slightly to move the centerline up a little. Sorry if this seems like a dumb question this is only my second build so I don't have much experience with locks and building. Like this....

[E.vonAschwege]

I'll never say anything is impossible, or that something never was a particular way on an original rifle, but I would strongly advise against using that particular lock for your build.  If you need to shorten the pull, it's best to remove a little wood from the butt.  Taylor's advise is spot on - a Lehigh gun is meant to be shot upright, which is great for those with giraffe necks like me.  I would use a Large Siler, Golden Age, or L&R Classic lock with that particular profile.  It's not that the early Ketland lock looks bad, it's just a little out of place to put such an early English lock on a classic 1790s - 1800s Lehigh rifle.  Which of Dave Keck's patterns is that btw? 
Best,
-Eric

[tlallijr]

Eric, Thanks for your input. The profile from Dave is Stophil Long.