Red walnut finish

[Nordnecker]

Those original walnut rifles, Tenn and such, some have that dark red finish/ varnish. If you were trying to duplicate this today, on a new gun, how would you go about it? I have read some older threads on similar topics, here and many other sites, but I haven't come to any real conclusions.

I've been experimenting with usual stains, dyes, AF, linseed, tung, shellac, etc. but nothing I've done looks right.

Any suggestions?

[Jim Kibler]

I would try a 10-20% nitric acid and water solution, followed by blushing.  No iron dissolved in the solution.

[James Rogers]

Ditto Jim

[gunmaker]

Where does a person get nitric acid ??

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

Duane Wiebe sells Alkanet Root for adding a red cast to walnut.
Mark

[smart dog]

Hi Tom,
Where to get nitric acid is a good question.  All of the sources I've checked over the last 5 years say they only sell to licensed businesses.  A few say they will not ship to residential addresses, only business addresses.  There is no issue with feric-nitrate crystals but there is with plain nitric acid.

dave

[David R. Pennington]

It is readily available from commercial chemical supply houses but most require your business license. I bought some a few years ago and it wasn't very expensive but they had to charge me for the hazardous material packaging if I were going to transport it in a motor vehicle. I guess if I had parked down the street and told them I was walking it would have been cheaper.

[Ed Wenger]

If you have a "Mom & Pop" drug store near you, you might want to check with them.  That's where I acquired nitric acid.  They didn't have it on hand, but ordered it for me, that way I didn't have to bother with a business license.  I wasn't cheap, mainly because of shipping, but it last's a long time.


       Ed

[Gaeckle]

I would think there would be some sort of analine dye readily available that when mixed with denatured alchohol that would be able to do the trick.

[E.vonAschwege]

The red cast we see on original guns, in my opinion, is mostly due to the reaction between the finish and wood, as well as oxidation, over the 180-250 years they've been around.  Most oil finishes darken and develop an amber or even red tint, and Bill Knight has some excellent thoughts regarding aquafortis and leaded linseed oil finishes creating red hues with time as well (that of course refers to maple stocked guns).  I had an English walnut 1840s export shotgun that had been stripped (but not sanded) on the cheek side, with the original finish intact on the lock side.  It was pretty clear all of the rich red color that remained was in the finish alone.  If trying to replicate the color of old finishes, don't stain the wood, put your colorant directly in the finish.  It takes layers to build up, so don't apply your first coat and expect rich vibrant color.  After 3 or 4 thin coats however, you'll notice a big difference.  Hope this helps!
-Eric

[smylee grouch]

Eric, would that be then considered a red violin finnish ?

[Birddog6]

It is readily available from commercial chemical supply houses but most require your business license. I bought some a few years ago and it wasn't very expensive but they had to charge me for the hazardous material packaging if I were going to transport it in a motor vehicle. I guess if I had parked down the street and told them I was walking it would have been cheaper.

You got ripped........  How you personally transport it is none of their business & they cannot charge you a Hazmat Fee for it.
If you Asked Them to ship it by a common Carrier for you, then if it is a Hazmat & then you will pay them for the Hazmat Fee
because they will have to pay the carrier the same fee.  Same if you take it to UPS to ship or motor frgt yourself, if it is hazmat
then the fee goes to the Carrier, as he is taking the responsibility of transportation.

Keith Lisle

[E.vonAschwege]

Eric, would that be then considered a red violin finnish ?

Adding pigment or color to the varnish is what is usually done with violins, but I'm not sure I would call what we're doing a violin finish, save for dragon's blood or madder root.  If I were looking for a reddish hue on a piece of walnut, I would not use madder lake pigment, as it tends to slightly cloud the finish, and has a very distinct color that doesn't mirror the look of aged oil finishes.  Dragon's blood as a spirit varnish is pretty, but nowhere near as durable as an oil finish.  Alkanet dye can be mixed with your oil I think, I'm not sure how light-fast it is.  I haven't tried it yet myself, but I would add dry aniline dye pigment to your oil and see if you can develop a mixture that is high in colorant but still dries properly.  You can mix a small amount of LMF aniline dyes to oil finishes, but if you could find a dye that is soluble in the oil itself, you could make a much richer final color finish.  I'll be experimenting with that technique in some upcoming projects. 

-Eric

[Nordnecker]

I am enjoying reading these posts. I suspected what Eric said. There are many posts on this and various other forums on violin varnish. One important consideration for them is lightness of the finish, as to not effect tonal qualities. I've "fiddled" with some of these finishes in the past.
I don't have any straight up nitric acid to try. I have used transtint dye, but don't have any red. I tried water soluable red dye but it looks realy weak under shellac and oil topcoats. I tried Aqua fortis/ heat blush and thought that was it, but topcoats made it look orange.
You go to these artist' sites and get looking around you could spend a small fortune in pigments and stuff. They certainly have a language of their own.
Regular old artist oil pigments with certainly mix with linseed oil, turpentine etc. I've done some faux finishing and decoy painting, too. Back to the shop for more experimenting.

[T*O*F]

Alkanet dye can be mixed with your oil I think

Somewhere in a popular publication is a recipe using alkanet root and oil.  It may be an old Dixie Gun Works catalog.  Anyway, I seem to recall that the root is placed in the oil and the jar set in the window for several weeks with the sun heating it.

I believe an alternative would be red artist's oil paint which would be readily soluble in oil and more readily available.

[Mike New]

I used some stuff called "Herters French Red stock filler" years ago. I am not sure if it is still available. Has any one else used this product? Mike New

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I used this on my last rifle I built. Gorgeous stuff! I actually used a scotch brite pad to knock it back so it wasnt so dark but that all is up to the shooter.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_96_214_215&products_id=3913

[Keithbatt]

I used some stuff called "Herters French Red stock filler" years ago. I am not sure if it is still available. Has any one else used this product? Mike New

Still available from Brownells. Search "French Red" and it's right there.  In my limited experience with it it does not give much of a red color, but does fill pores. I applied it to a walnut stock I am in the process of finishing.

Keith

[Scota4570]

I use lacquer toner for many staining jobs.  I use it  for a tint after acid staining maple if needed.   It is used to tint sprayed on lacquer.  It seems to be a dye type thing.  It come in may colors.  Mahogany, ebony, and dark walnut get the most use by me.  I mix and match until I get something I like. 

They also have colors like blue and green, we'd never use that on a rifle, but for a guitar or some kind of special of project? 

A real paint tore that has bulk lacquer for spray application will have this product. 

For the red tint on walnut the mahogany color will work.  Dilute the lacquer stain with acetone or lacquer thinner and sneak up with repeat applications of diluted stain. 

[snrub47]

Would this be what you need??

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/18Y11/Behlen-Solar-Lux-Stain-Blood-Red-Pint.aspx

[David Rase]

When I was experimenting with varnish making I bought a lot of chemicals from these guys.  http://kyantec.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php  They advertise nitric acid.
David

[E.vonAschwege]

When I was experimenting with varnish making I bought a lot of chemicals from these guys.  http://kyantec.com/cgi-bin/online/storepro.php  They advertise nitric acid.

That's where I bought my 70% nitric several years ago - still have half of the bottle in a very secure container.  Shipping cost more than the acid did. 
-Eric

[davec2]

You don't need "reagent grade" acid.  Technical grade is much cheaper.  You can find nitric acid on Amazon also.

These guys have it listed as well

http://www.terracepackaging.com/products.php

Or here...you can get a half a liter for ~35$ or 2.5 liters for $65.  I don't know what the shipping is but it will probably double the price....

http://www.gfschemicals.com/statics/productdetails/NITRIC_ACID_2587.html

I do a lot of precious metal refining that requires the use of many chemicals including nitric acid.  Here is a post several of you might be interested in concerning the availability of chemicals.....

http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=5973

[jerrywh]

 Dave.
  I was going to give some nitric acid to another craftsman but UPS refused to ship it under any circumstances.  Who will ship it?  By the way. I am going to send you a CD of the 2015 FEGA award winners. I won three of the top  awards.

[JCKelly]

You might want to pay attention to where you store that nitric acid

The fumes, even from a tightly closed bottle, will rust everything in sight.

Including things you really, really did not want rusted.

Age 16 experience speaking, got the stuff from school chem lab (in Ancient Times)