barrel woes & accuracy

[richb77]

I am a newbie with BP. I had an old TC Hawken that I had stored in the closet for the last 20 years. I have started shooting with a club here in San Antonio. I purchased a Rice barrel in 45 cal. for the Hawken. I have put at least 200 rounds through it. My groups at 50 yards are great, 3 shots that touch each other. When I try to sight in at 100 yards I am all over the place, can't seem to get a group inside 12 inches. I am using 55 grains of 3f at 50 and 65 grains at 100, I am using a .440 ball with .020 Teflon patch. Anybody have any suggestions?

[Marcruger]

The first thing that comes into my mind is the target you are using.  

At 100 yards my old eyes don't discern the aiming point as well as at shorter ranges.  

For open sights, as well as peeps with bead front sights, I make my own targets.  I get a piece of day-glow yellow or green poster board, and use a black magic marker to make a big black cross (side to side & top to bottom of paper) across the center.  The legs of the cross are, say, 3" wide.  

From 100yards the cross looks plenty fine, and you can draw a good "bead" on the target to regulate your groups.  It allows fine aiming both horizontally and vertically.  

It works for me.  I hope it proves helpful to you.  

Best wishes,   Marc

[Marcruger]

Also, have you tried your 55 grain load at 100yards?  Your gun may simply not like the 65 grain charge.  Rounds touching at 50 yards shouldn't be 12 inches at 100yards.  

I'd be hard pressed to say that the Rice barrel is at fault.  There are some experts builders and shooters that rely on Jason's barrels.  The 50 yard group sounds like it is performing as intended.  

Best wishes,    Marc

[EC121]

I'm with Marc.    Don't blame the barrel.  If the shots are touching at 50, they should be close at 100.  The load is reasonable.  Try the 65gr. at 50 and see what it does.  If 65gr. groups at 50, then sighting is the problem.  Plan B would be to shoot the 55 at 100 and see how it groups.  Also .020 patching could be blowing at 65gr.  A .445 with thinner patching might help.

[SCLoyalist]

Richb,  have you been shooting offhand or off a rest?   Have you recovered any of the patches and examined for signs that the patch is getting cut or burned through during the loading/firing process?   Are you cleaning between shots?     The only thing that caught my eye in reading your description was use of Teflon patching - I didn't know Teflon patching was even still available.

The things that come to mind to try after you've tried the previously made suggestions are:
(1) get a more experienced BP shooter (preferably one who shoots a 45 so you can try a sample of his patch and lube) to go to the range with you.   Let him shoot your gun with your loads and see if the good and bad groupings stay with the gun when he shoots.   If 100 yard performance is noticeably better when he shoots, you know you just have to work on technique a bit.     Recover fired patches and check for any sign of damage.   Ideally, the patch ought to look sound enough to be able to use again.

(2) Find a good article on 'working up a load'.   Try some different ball diameter, patch thickness, patch lube, and powder charge combinations.  If nothing else, lay hands on some pillow ticking in the 0.018 to 0.020 thickness range and lube it with Hoppes 9+, wonderlube, spit, or Mr. Flintlock and see if that makes things better or worse.

(3)  Until you find a load that groups   to your satisfaction at 100 yards,  shoot off a rest.

Good luck, SCL

P.S.  It occurred to me that if you're old enough to have had the Hawken in a closet for 20 years, you're probably old enough for your vision to be changing some.   When you put the Rice Barrel into the TC stock,  what barrel length and style of front/rear sights did you choose, and how far forward of the breech did you put the rear sight?     I would be very surprised if the issue is a defective barrel and would be looking at a load issue (like maybe a patch failing) or a sighting issue (can't see the distant target well enough to aim at the same spot on it, or having trouble keeping the same rear/front sight focus for the distant ranges).    

[Standing Bear]

Though all of the possible problems mentioned have merit, I believe you'll find as SCL said, the load you are using at 100 isn't optimal whether powder or ball and patch combination.  As mentioned try the 50 gr load first at 100 and even if it is low on the target get some definition of how well it is doing.  Also try .445 balls.  Then maybe try FFg.  Change only one thing at a time so you will know what helped or didn't.

Last .45 I had I shot .451 balls and .015 patches with 50 gr FFg for 25 and 50 yards and 75 gr at 100 yds.

Good luck
TC

[WadePatton]

I am a newbie with BP. ... Anybody have any suggestions?

(comments deleted by author-no longer pertinent.)

===

That and it's probably your target.  TRY THIS: set up your normal target at 50-without a heavy backer, then place another target at 100 such that it "catches" those balls that punched the target at 50.  Don't look at 100, just shoot the 50.

Then (by measuring the same shots at both ranges) it's pretty well impossible to have 3-touching and over 12-inch groups at those ranges.

[bob in the woods]

Does the barrel have square or round grooves ?   You can check the depth of the grooves by going on line .
I don't use teflon patching, but my barrel likes .022 tight weave linen patching. and a .445 ball
with 60 gr 3F GOEX  
If you up your charge for 100 yes , you might need a thicker patch or larger ball.

[David R. Pennington]

Every rifle is different. You have to feed' em what they want. I would suggest you gather up several thicknesses of patch material, FFG and FFFG powder 2 or 3 different sizes of round balls and plan to spend the whole day at the range (preferably a quiet windless day). Take a note book and try different combinations. When working up a load I shoot 3 shots with each combination and swab bore and change something. The combination that gives the best group is what I feed her. I tried raising my charge 5 grains for 100 yds. and my group opened up. I shoot same load at 100 as at 50.

[Daryl]

Every rifle is different. You have to feed' em what they want. I would suggest you gather up several thicknesses of patch material, FFG and FFFG powder 2 or 3 different sizes of round balls and plan to spend the whole day at the range (preferably a quiet windless day). Take a note book and try different combinations. When working up a load I shoot 3 shots with each combination and swab bore and change something. The combination that gives the best group is what I feed her. I tried raising my charge 5 grains for 100 yds. and my group opened up. I shoot same load at 100 as at 50.

good stuff - ditto - must use what the rifle wants, not what you want it to shoot.

Lube can make a big difference.  Your TC is not a CHUNK or BENCH REST rifle. Leave the teflon patches and wiping to those who shoot those disciplines.  Your rifle will shoot amazingly well with cloth patched .445" balls. I suggest starting with an 18 thou patch, and going up to 25 thou. That's start at .018" and go to .025" - you will probably find excellent shooting loads at all ranges form 55gr.of powder, up to 75gr. of powder in 3F or 60gr. 2f to 80gr. 2f for the longer ranges - IF using an oiled or greased patch lube.
 
With a water based lube you may find both 2F and 3F shoot well at all ranges, from 50gr. to 65gr.

Generally speaking, the slipperier the lube, the more powder is needed top get consistent pressures.

Water based lubes, being less slippery, develop good consistent internal ballistics with smaller charges - normally.

Consistency is important, NO -- not just important - it is paramount, for good accuracy to happen consistently.

[richb77]

WOW,
A lot of great info.
I was not saying that the barrel was the problem, just what I was doing with it.
SLC I get my patch material from The Minute-Men www.theminute-men.com
I really appreciate all the advice.
My eyes are getting older, cannot focus on both the front site and rear at the same time. I am using a Lyman tang rear and a Lyman globe front. I am shooting off a rest.
I tried the 55 grain load at our Sunday meet, the results were much better (ended up 2nd cumulative, not many shooters due to the weather but a good result for me).
My patches do show a bit of cutting still, not all the way through though.
I found a insert card with a cross hair for the front site and will try that as well as the other advice.
Someone said read all you can, try everything and use what works.
This BP thing is the most fun I have ever had shooting
Thanks Everyone

[Daryl]

Patch cutting usually happens at the muzzle's crown, due to sharp edged machine cuts.



This is what I do.  Using the end of my thumb, pushing 320 emery cloth or 320 grit wet/dry paper into the bore and twisting my hand, back and forth, rotating the barrel every now and then and in a few minutes:







The end result is NO cutting, no matter how thick the patch is.

[Robby]

Thats a great tip Daryl!!! I took your advisement some years ago, and still apply it to every barrel use. Works like a champ!
Robby

[EC121]

I have also done it, but I used the rounded end of a properly sized screwdriver handle.  Gives more pressure and doing it that way keeps my arthritic thumb joint quiet.

[Marcruger]

My expert buddy does the same crown polishing with a large, dome headed brass bolt a little larger than the bore.  He chucks the bolt in a power drill, and slowly polishes the crown with valve lapping compound.  Got rid of burrs on my gun's muzzle. Hope this helps!   Best wishes and God Bless,   Marc

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The effect of using your thumb is different than using another 'tool'.  With your thumb, your flesh collapses in the bore and the abrasive cuts away the sharp corners of the filing...the part that is causing the cut patches.
I use a 3/4" ball bearing brazed to a 1/4" rod and lapping compound to cut and polish a CF rifle crown.  But for a ML'r the thumb is the tool.  You don't have to press hard... just take your time and twist the abrasive cloth/paper back and forth, turning the barrel every now and again to make it even.  Easy peezy.

[richb77]

Seems to me that the BP folks are the greatest. I am so glad that I found my old rifle in the closet and joined the local club.
Thank you all for the feedback.

[Dphariss]

I am a newbie with BP. I had an old TC Hawken that I had stored in the closet for the last 20 years. I have started shooting with a club here in San Antonio. I purchased a Rice barrel in 45 cal. for the Hawken. I have put at least 200 rounds through it. My groups at 50 yards are great, 3 shots that touch each other. When I try to sight in at 100 yards I am all over the place, can't seem to get a group inside 12 inches. I am using 55 grains of 3f at 50 and 65 grains at 100, I am using a .440 ball with .020 Teflon patch. Anybody have any suggestions?

Why did you change powder charges? Does 65gr shoot at 50?

Dan

[moleeyes36]

Seems to me that the BP folks are the greatest. I am so glad that I found my old rifle in the closet and joined the local club.
Thank you all for the feedback.

Be careful, BP smoke seems to be addicting!    And welcome to the forum.

Mole Eyes

[Daryl]

I am a newbie with BP. I had an old TC Hawken that I had stored in the closet for the last 20 years. I have started shooting with a club here in San Antonio. I purchased a Rice barrel in 45 cal. for the Hawken. I have put at least 200 rounds through it. My groups at 50 yards are great, 3 shots that touch each other. When I try to sight in at 100 yards I am all over the place, can't seem to get a group inside 12 inches. I am using 55 grains of 3f at 50 and 65 grains at 100, I am using a .440 ball with .020 Teflon patch. Anybody have any suggestions?

Why did you change powder charges? Does 65gr shoot at 50?

Dan

The Rice barrel will have approx. .012" deep rifling if square rifling and .016" if rounded bottoms to the grooves.

A .445" ball with .020" to .023" patch (compressed) is about right - if using a wet lube, as in water based or oil or grease of some sort.

In rifles that do not kick, like about anything up to a .58, I use the same powder charge at all ranges.  Whatever shoots well at 50 or 100yards, gets used at 25 as well. I simply learn to shoot it at all ranges.

Too many times we're walking our local trail-walk, or at a shoot and someone who is a charge per range switcher, gets caught with the wrong load for the range involved.