Author Topic: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........  (Read 37584 times)

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Another English Rifle...Progress...slow, but progress...
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2015, 05:15:57 AM »
Thanks for that info Dave. At one time I owned a Samuel Nock sxs shotgun made in 1857. The locks were case hardened and they had the nice coloring too. Looking at some of the Twigg guns in my copy of "Great British Gunmakers" I can not tell from the pictures if they have any case coloring or the coloring wore off from handling, or even if they were color case hardened during that period. I imagine it would be a bit difficult to prevent scale build up on the polished and engraved frizzen and get a fast quench at the same time. Maybe wrap the frizzen with a piece of brown bag paper, pack in powdered charcoal let it heat soak at the correct temp then a fast dump in the brine you mentioned may do the trick. Just keep the oxygen away. Just thinking out load so to speak. I wonder what the alloy of the lock plate is? I will be taking a class at Jim Chambers place in a month. I will sure pick his mind on this.
Thanks again Rrichard

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Another English Rifle...Progress...slow, but progress...
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2015, 07:09:03 AM »
Dave on those frizzens try case hardening them even if they are 1090, then draw.
 You always do great work. 
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline davec2

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Re: Another English Rifle...Progress...slow, but progress...
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2015, 09:07:36 AM »
Jerry,

Thanks for the tip.  I have another one of those frizzens to harden....I'll give it a try.

And the only reason my engraving is even remotely acceptable is because of what you taught me.  I miss sitting in your shop and watching you work.  I need to come back for more lessons.

Dave C
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Another English Rifle...Progress...slow, but progress...
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2015, 02:36:20 PM »
Flatsgfuide,

Yes, the frizzen is annealed prior to polishing and engraving and then is re-hardened.  (These are cast 1090 and are a pain to re-harden, at least for me.  I follow the Chambers instructions for hardening their frizzens, but the oil quench just does not cool the part fast enough so I use brine.  Works better, but may take two or three tries to get hard enough to spark.....topic for another post).

As for the finish on this lock, I will case harden it and then polish off the colors.  Not sure yet if I will just leave it bright, as I have with some of the others, or "bronze" it like I did on the barrel of this rifle.

Dave,
You need a better source of heat to reharden a frizzen. As I and another man posted earlier,the Presto-lite "B" cylinder with a regulator and hose will do the job.  I have used it for 50 years and my results speak for themselves. ANY welding supply shop should have this ready to go and get a #3 and #5 tip which is all needed for what we do.
   
     The lock Taylor posted for me was NOT a rebuild. I get these from Barbie with frizzen and spring installed and a clean plate with only the tumbler hole in place..

     I have also got a double set trigger started for a project that never materialized. It is a HAWKEN
type but with an 8x1/2" plate. It might not accommodate a Hawken trigger guard but can be cut off
for use on something else. No castings,roll pins or piano wire used. When it's finished I'll take $75 including shipping by the USPS to any address in the USA or Canada.

Bob Roller



Offline davec2

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Re: Another English Rifle...Progress...slow, but progress...
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2015, 07:35:00 PM »
Bob,

On these frizzens I have tried three different heat sources...I have and use a Presto-Lite torch, as you suggest, and it does the heating job very well.  After heating to ~1475 F, the frizzen was quenched in Canola oil.  It was too hard to file, however, when cleaned up and replaced on the lock, it did not spark.  Contrary to the Chambers instructions, I re-heated the frizzen in an electric furnace to 1475 F and kept it there for about 20 minutes.  Jim Chambers recommends NOT doing this as the steel will decarburize.  To prevent this, I packed the frizzen in bone charcoal the same way I would for a case hardening run.  The frizzen was again quenched in the oil and again was not hard enough to spark.  On the third attempt, I used a rose bud torch tip on an Oxy-acetylene rig (being careful not to over heat the part) and kept the frizzen a bright red color for a minute or two before quenching in brine.  This seemed to work but after a few snaps in the lock, the frizzen stopped sparking again and the surface of the steel was soft enough to beat up the flint badly.  Suspecting that the surface may have become decarburized, I ground a few thousands of the steel away and finally got what I thought was an acceptable spark out of it.

I usually do not have this much trouble heat treating a part, but I have had a $#*! of a time with these particular frizzens.  I'm sure there is nothing wrong with the part, as it comes from Jim Chambers, as the locks spark beautifully when I get them.  I just seem to have trouble getting the frizzen back to its original hardened state after I finish engraving.

By the way, I anneal these by packing the part in bone charcoal and running it up to 1500 F in and electric furnace and then turn the furnace off and let it cool down over night, so I don't think I am decarburizing during the anneal.  So, I must be doing something wrong that I am just not seeing...yet.  I'm sure if I mess around with this long enough the correct answer will occur to me.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline flatsguide

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Re: Another English Rifle...Progress...slow, but progress...
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2015, 12:53:41 AM »
FWIW I built my one and only flintlock rifle in the early '70s. I think it had a Siler lock. I don't know the alloy of the frizzen. The only way I could get good sparks was to heat the frizzen a bit more than dull redwith a carburizing flame from a rosebud oxyacetylene torch and spoon Casenit onto the frizzen until the Casenite melted then quenched in water. No the frizzen was not engraved.

Offline davec2

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2015, 05:20:44 AM »
Just to make sure I understood how long it took me to get this one finished, I got this message when I started to continue with this post......

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.


Ok.....Ok....so I had to stop to make a living, but I finally got around to finishing the English rifle.  Here it is:

































The rifle is .58 caliber, has a peep rear sight, and sterling silver thumb piece and decoration on the patch box lid.  The thumb piece is a duplicate of a Jim Kibler design just reduced in size a bit.  The patch box decoration is a thumb piece of my design.  I "ebonized" the hickory ram rod with tannic acid and aqua fortis.  The ram rod tip is black horn.  I haven't shot it yet, but am anxious to do so.....I will let you all know how it works out.


« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 08:02:57 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2015, 05:32:33 AM »
Your works of wood and steel (and other metals) read like poetry.  8)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 05:33:06 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2015, 05:50:09 AM »
What a visual treat, thanks so much for letting all of us follow along with your fantastic workmanship.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2015, 06:24:14 AM »
 Dave.
  Your not going to take that gun hunting are you??
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Rolf

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2015, 09:37:41 AM »
Beautiful work as allways!!  How do you bronze a barrel?

Best regards
Rolf

Offline wattlebuster

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2015, 12:16:13 PM »
WOW :o :o :o
Nothing beats the feel of a handmade southern iron mounted flintlock on a cold frosty morning

Offline Captchee

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2015, 03:41:31 PM »
 nice job Dave , Very nice indeed

Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2015, 05:57:01 PM »
Ha!

120 days is nothing in my gun building callender.  Dave your speed and results always amaze me, as do your methods and tool making skills.

Great job!

Jeff
There are no solutions.  There are only trade-offs.”
Thomas Sowell

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2015, 07:34:53 PM »
Dave that's a beautiful rifle and a true work of art - in the years to come the gun world will speak your name with reverance ;).
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline davec2

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2015, 07:47:42 PM »
Thank you all for the kind comments.

Jerry - Sure I will take this rifle hunting.  It would be my preferred method of "aging" it and applying that "well used but well cared for" patina.

Rolf - Here is how I finished the barrel (from an older post):

I have been experimenting some with the last three rifles I have built.  Not necessarily a "dark grey" patina, but it's not a brown and it's not a blue...I'm not quite sure what it is, but I like it....so far.  Here  are some variations on the same theme on 3 different rifles.....











The process is as follows:  I start a rust brown exactly as I would for a plumb brown finish.  I use a damp box and do one, two, or three, rust cycles of Laurel Mountain Forge Barrel Brown carding with a brass wire tooth brush each cycle.  The number of cycles depends on if I want the final finish more grey / blue or more bronze / brown.  Once I have a couple of brown cycles on it, I handle the barrel with latex gloves.  I take the barrel and put it on the bench covered with a plastic trash bag taped down.  Now I scrub the barrel with a small, maroon ScotchBrite pad (2" x2") soaked in one of the cold blue solutions (Oxpho-Blue, Dicropan T-4, Historic House Parts Brass Ager) until I get the barrel to look like I want it.  If you only give it two browning passes and do not dwell too long with the cold blue, the barrel comes out with a slight golden tone.  More browning passes and not much ScotchBrite rubbing and it comes out a little more brown.  Rub it a little more with the cold blue, and it takes on a darker, bluer tone.  I did one where I subsequently rubbed all the finish off the edges with a dry ScotchBrite pad, and that looks OK too (a little more "worn") but I figure use and handling will take care of that fast enough anyway.

P.W. Berkuta - Thank you for the kind thought, but I suffer no delusions about either my skill or my legacy.  In a single generation or two, only my children and grand children will recognize my name.  A generation after that, the only time anyone will ever even see my name is if they are walking through the cemetery looking at headstones while they are looking for someone else...just the way of the world.....:)


« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 08:03:42 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2015, 07:51:38 PM »
I love it Dave! Your detail attention is amazing!

Offline davec2

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2015, 08:00:17 PM »
James,

The pouch you made for me with the embossed flap is the one I will use with this rifle.  I had to build a rifle that was worthy of your pouch and your attention to detail.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline gumboman

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2015, 09:07:25 PM »
Beautiful job Dave. I have two questions.

Did you make or buy the peep sight? If bought where did you get it?

Can you do a tutorial on how you installed the butt plate to achieve such a precise fit?

Those English butt plates with the long extension look very difficult to install. I have a project coming up that will use that style of butt plate and I need some help with the procedure.

Best regards,

Offline Ed Wenger

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2015, 09:17:14 PM »
Very nice!  I agree with James...  Very clean and sharp, excellent engraving as always.  Great job!


      Ed
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2015, 11:23:56 PM »
Excellent Dave, just excellent. That is going to be a beauty!

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline davec2

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2015, 11:51:31 PM »
Gumboman,

I made the rear sight from a small piece of mild steel.  Have not seen any that were available for sale.  

As far as the butt plate inletting goes, it is a tedious task but not very complicated. Since the plate has to move forward and down it is easy to get gaps behind some of the features of the top return as the plate is settled into place.  As it only needs to go down a 1/16th of an inch, I have the best luck getting the vertical portion of the plate well fitted first before I do anything with the return on the top of the butt.  Once the rear of the plate is as far forward as it needs to go, you can start inletting the top return down into the top of the butt.  Then I use a combination of stabbing and cutting in the outline of the return and do so at an angle to ensure the inlet is undersize.  I smoke the return and tap it in gently to see where wood needs to be removed.  Once down in place, I install the screws and check the inlet again.  Then I screw the butt plate down tight and thoroughly wet the area around the return to swell the wood into close contact with the metal.  The final step is to file and polish the metal and wood together.  Once down in place and polished, I try never to remove the butt plate again.  In this case, I removed it to engrave it, but then put it right back and i finished the stock with the plate in place.  This last step helps to fill any remaining small voids with finish.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 11:52:40 PM by davec2 »
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #72 on: August 27, 2015, 02:14:31 AM »
James,

The pouch you made for me with the embossed flap is the one I will use with this rifle.  I had to build a rifle that was worthy of your pouch and your attention to detail.

Ha Ha! You are a gentleman Dave. If I could only have a thimble full of your talent and knowledge!

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #73 on: August 27, 2015, 04:58:34 AM »
 That is one super nice rifle.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

hammer

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Re: Another English Rifle...Finally Finished........
« Reply #74 on: August 27, 2015, 11:10:39 AM »
Dave, stunning in every single detail.

Question - when you are finishing the barrel do you neutralise the rusting/browning before applying the blue?   

Thanks for letting us see your work.

Peter.