Etching a damascus pistol barrel

[eddillon]

My Boutet style pistol is ready to have its Damascus barrel etched.  I have a quart bottle of ferric chloride solution.  It is marked 42 degrees Baume.  Is it ready to use or should it be diluted further?  I'm not sure but I think 42 Baume is 1:1 Ferric chloride:distilled water.  Suggestions? 

[jerrywh]

 Where did you get the ferric chloride from?  That stuff is very strong. I don't think I would use that for what you want.  When I etch barrels I use nitric acid cut about 15or 20 :1 . 
  I use ferric chloride for etching our back ground on engraving at times but it depends on who you bought it from.  The stuff that radio sack sells is not as active as the stuff that is sold by Cronite.
  I have never seen a Boutet barrel  etched anyway.

[eddillon]

My goal is to bring out the Damascus pattern.  Ferric chloride does this on knife blades.

[LRB]

  Yes, it is commonly used on Damascus knife blades, but when it comes to a gun barrel, I would heed Jerry's advise, if for no other reason, just because it is Jerry's advise  based on many years of experience.

[Wolfeknives]

I frequently etch damascus with ferric chloride. A short emersion (2-3 minutes) in diluted ferric chloride will show the pattern without etching too deep. However by simply etching the look will not be correct for gun barrels, and will be a relatively light contrast. My original english pistols look exactly like the barrels shown at the start of this video: The method shown does use ferric chloride, and as Jerry mentions may not be the best way to do it.

Wolfgang

[T*O*F]

Bill Brockway had written how to color Damascus gunbarrels using modern products and I think he posted it here at one time.  I've got it saved somewhere on a backup CD, but don't know exactly where it is now.  Also, it might be in his book on building a double gun.

Gaddy's original formulas are readily available on the web too.  Brockway's were more easily understood.  I'll see if I can dig it out when I get time.

[Captchee]

 Well , Jerry beat me to it . Yep he know his stuff . i have learned more then alittle from that old Badger

 IMO your solution is way to strong and would need to be cut back .
  As others have said ,  what you have is used on knife blades  which are often time, from what I have seen , etched  way to deep and to the point they have a texture  .. With a gun barrel your after pattern NOT  texture . IMO if you can feel  the pattern , then its to deep . Getting that nice , correct  pattern isn’t a one step deal , it’s a process  of etching , rusting , carding ………
Also I find that many times  that even with a  20:1 mix ,  you need to be watching the bath closely  so  go past the pattern, even with Nitric acid.  As soon as you see the pattern pull it . I have found it so much easier to build up that pattern then it is to try and  define it  after its become muddy   from setting in the bath to long .
 
 depending on your barrel make up , other solutions  will also work .
 this barrel i did  using Bleach . I took this photo hafter about 5 repeats of the process . you can see the diffrence between the barrel that has been carded and the one that i had yet to card back .


yep Bill Brockway also wrote about  bring out the pattern . but i have found  it doesnt work many barrels.
 this is the  process i most often use. however even it sometimes whont pull the paternon some barrels
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18MIvJwHhLh87zYiUDOQ4RkZKw7b42sUhVKz_9HMDdv4/edit

[eddillon]

Thanks, guys.  I'll heed Jerry's advice.  I posted to get suggestions.  I got them.  Much appreciated.  I do want to bring out the pattern. 

[kutter]

I use ferric chloride as the etch for damascus finishing SxS bbls. Just to bring the pattern out,
not to change the surface texture of the metal at all.

The stuff I use is labled '415-1L Ferric Chloride' ,,from MG-Chemical.
Probably bought it 20 yrs ago.
I'm no scientist so I can't tell you anything more about it's make up than that.

I use it in no more than about a 5% soln w/ distilled water for damascus finishing etch. Even less is OK.
It's used between the rust brown or bluing cycles. A quick dip into the etch,,and I mean as quick as you can get the part into and back out of it is all that is needed.
Then under running water you do the carding with fine steel wool.
The etching loosens the layer of brown (or blue) you just applied.
It loosens it completely from the steel portion of the damascus bbl so you card that clean. That's the white of the pattern. Some is lost in each cycle from the softer iron of the bbl pattern, but not all. That is the dark colored portion of the damascus pattern that evolves as each coating and cycle is applied.

It's a slower process than just rust brown or blue. Kind of 3 steps forward and 2 back each time. Sometimes it takes several cycles before a pattern of any color appears. You think you're going no where. Others pop out quickly.
Some finishers do several coats/cycles of brown or blue before doing a dunking in the etch and have good luck that way. Saves time for sure.

I keep the etch in a PVC tube. Glued cap at the bottom,,screw cap at the top. It sits upright strapped to a bench in the corner and has been there since forever. No need for a tank set up if you don't want to.

Coat the bore as the etch will destroy it through the process. I use simple plain shellac liberaly applied. It holds up through the boiling water of rust blue though I do re-apply a coating inside around cycle #8 or so.
Damascus finishing will take many more cycles than a regular rust brown or blue generally to get the same color because the etching phase is removing part of the color each time.

Just the way I do it. But there are several different methods. You try a bunch and settle on techniques that give results.

[jerrywh]

  Boutet never etched his barrels that I am aware of and I have been collecting photos of Boutet  guns for about 30 years.  The gun barrels that have a deep etch on Damascus that I have seen are middle eastern and some European stuff but not many. It will not look like a Boutet if it is etched. Most of  Boutet's gun barrels were fire blued and I would swear  I saw one that was rust blued. At least the photo of the barrel was black but you can accomplish that by heat alone also.  The correct finish for a Boutet is lots of gold work in the classic style. The Classic style is rather gaudy but that is how it was. If you look at Boutet guns you will have a hard time finding one with a Damascus barrel. At least the pattern was not visible. Making a presentation   Boutet is probably the ultimate challenge.  My self included.
 Why?- You cannot buy any parts for a Boutet of any type. You cannot even buy a Barrel of the proper configuration for most of his.  Every trigger guard is different on his presentation guns so one must make patterns of some type of his own, make molds, and cast his own parts or find someone who will. The same goes for all the parts. All this being said It is good for any ambitious craftsman to have the goal in mind because in the attempt he will advance his skill way beyond the ordinary. Remember this.  Boutet was the director of the armory at Versailles France during the Napoleon Empire. He had thousands of workers under him there. Also he was for some time and at the same time the director of the Arms trade at Liege Belgium. There were also thousands of workers there. He never referred to himself as a gun maker.  He always reffered to himself as an artist.  I have extreme doubts if he ever made any more than one whole gun in his life. He may not have ever made a whole gun by himself.  He was a goldsmith.  When you are the director of three or four thousand men you do not have time to make a gun. The presentation guns you see of his probably involved the work of about 50 men in all. He probably designed some of them. Or directed their construction.
  In conclusion you are setting a very high bar for yourself but that is great and for that I admire you a great deal and I hope you succeed some day.  The world need people like you. If I can be of assistance please ask. I would love to see the progress as you proceed. Jerrywh.

[Dennis Glazener]

After sharpening the Damascus blade on my patch knife (I know not PC but it was given to me) it lost all of the Damascus pattern. I soaked a paper towel in cider vinegar and wrapped the blade with it and left overnight. Looked great the next morning, beautiful Damascus pattern where it was shinny metal the night before.
Dennis

[jerrywh]

 Dennis.
  I would like to try that myself. Sounds promising.  
Kutter.
 I have seen that process used on Damascus shotgun barrels and it is the best I ever have seen for that. Variations of it will produce different colors.

[eddillon]

  Boutet never etched his barrels that I am aware of and I have been collecting photos of Boutet  guns for about 30 years.  The gun barrels that have a deep etch on Damascus that I have seen are middle eastern and some European stuff but not many. It will not look like a Boutet if it is etched. Most of  Boutet's gun barrels were fire blued and I would swear  I saw one that was rust blued. At least the photo of the barrel was black but you can accomplish that by heat alone also.  The correct finish for a Boutet is lots of gold work in the classic style. The Classic style is rather gaudy but that is how it was. If you look at Boutet guns you will have a hard time finding one with a Damascus barrel. At least the pattern was not visible. Making a presentation   Boutet is probably the ultimate challenge.  My self included.
 Why?- You cannot buy any parts for a Boutet of any type. You cannot even buy a Barrel of the proper configuration for most of his.  Every trigger guard is different on his presentation guns so one must make patterns of some type of his own, make molds, and cast his own parts or find someone who will. The same goes for all the parts. All this being said It is good for any ambitious craftsman to have the goal in mind because in the attempt he will advance his skill way beyond the ordinary. Remember this.  Boutet was the director of the armory at Versailles France during the Napoleon Empire. He had thousands of workers under him there. Also he was for some time and at the same time the director of the Arms trade at Liege Belgium. There were also thousands of workers there. He never referred to himself as a gun maker.  He always reffered to himself as an artist.  I have extreme doubts if he ever made any more than one whole gun in his life. He may not have ever made a whole gun by himself.  He was a goldsmith.  When you are the director of three or four thousand men you do not have time to make a gun. The presentation guns you see of his probably involved the work of about 50 men in all. He probably designed some of them. Or directed their construction.
  In conclusion you are setting a very high bar for yourself but that is great and for that I admire you a great deal and I hope you succeed some day.  The world need people like you. If I can be of assistance please ask. I would love to see the progress as you proceed. Jerrywh.

Jerry,
The Boutet bar is way above my pay grade and ability.  Had a perfect chunk of Circassian and an original unused French monkey-tail lock.  Lock never on a gun that smacks of Boutet.  Have 10 1/2 inch, Damascus swamped barrel in .45 that I am using.  Want to "etch" just enough to show the pattern.  No deep etch.  I have a fresh bottle of the ferric chloride solution (42 degrees Baume), Ace Hardware Muriatic, Laurel Mountain Degreaser/Brown and naval jelly.  I plan to strip w/naval jelly, etch with ferric chloride or muriatic acid and rust blue with LMF formula diluted 50/50 distilled water.  Please guide me sir.  Thanks for the remarks.  I must confess that the "success some day" can't be postponed too long.  I am 77 years old!  Some days I feel 25 but some days I feel 77.    

[jerrywh]

 If I etched with ferric chloride I would cut it to about 10% . If you use it full strength I would just brush it on with a bristle brush and be prepared to rinse it. You can see what it is doing that way better.  I have etched barrels with  nitric acid about 10 %. I made a tank out of a piece of 4" plastic pipe. It has a drain valve on one end. That is so I can get the acid back in the container without any spilling.  You can do this but I would go slow. The ferric chloride I have is very strong and it will etch .010 in about 10 minutes at 65°F. Fumes are sort od bad. Not good for my sinuses. At 10% It shouldn't be too bad.  Might be a good idea to shellac the bore.

[Captchee]

  For  tanks , I use a piece of  4 inch black PVC pipe , capped on both ends .
 I then  took them to my band saw and cut about ¼ of one side ..
 The result is you end up with a tank that you can  slip the barrel into and watch them turn .
 I have 2 of these .  One for the acid bath and one for the  Iron bath .
 My 3rd tank is a  made from 4x  4 x 1/8 channel that I  welded the ends up on . This I use as my boiling tank . As in the tutorial , I boil in a mix of logwood and water .”log wood on blacken barrels “
 that’s followed by a short soak in an iron bath
 If you have not tried the iron bath  step , some time give it a try .
  The iron  loosens the  rust and  logwood stain from the areas of lesser  iron content  while at the same time  leaving a degree of rusting in the  higher content areas . The result is you can  just about rinse the  rust and  log wood right from the barrel  . In fact   in about 15 minutes , if left in the bath , you can take your finger and  just swirl the water  to reveal the pattern.

 What I have found is the process  will for the most part , reveal  not only the pattern but also   the depth of colors  that are often lost  in other methods that I had tried  especially when applied to a more basic pattern like a stub  twist . What you get is not only  the twist showing up boldly , but also  the muliple colors of the weld .

[eddillon]

Captchee, can you give me a quick rundown of your process? I would like to try it. I think You explained the process and apparatus quite well.  Can you give me the chemicals used in the process.

[Captchee]

Captchee, can you give me a quick rundown of your process? I would like to try it. I think You explained the process and apparatus quite well.  Can you give me the chemicals used in the process.

take a look at the link below the phot i posted . it will lead you through what you need . its a very good tutorial  with photos of doing SXS barrels

[eddillon]

Thanks, all
Ed

[eddillon]

My Boutet style pistol is ready to have its Damascus barrel etched.  I have a quart bottle of ferric chloride solution.  It is marked 42 degrees Baume.  Is it ready to use or should it be diluted further?  I'm not sure but I think 42 Baume is 1:1 Ferric chloride:distilled water.  Suggestions?  

Thanks all for the suggestions.  Here is what finally worked after trying  multitude of processes that resulted in hiding the pattern:
Stripped off prior efforts with Naval Jelly
Rinsed with warm water.
Applied LMF diluted 1:1 with distilled water.
Waited 2 hours.
Dipped in boiling water for 20 minutes.
Carded under running water.
Dipped in ferric chloride solution. (I cup ferric chloride added to almost 1 gallon of distilled water)
Three more applications of the LMF diluted solution.
About 45-60 minutes per application
Carded under running water with #0000 steel wool between these applications
Applied a 5th application of the LMF solution.
After 60 minutes, boiled in distilled water for 30 minutes.
Totally blue black.
Carded in running water.  pattern not developed too well.
Dipped in the ferric chloride solution.
Submerged in it 15 seconds.
Repeated twice more.  This really brought out the pattern.
Rinsed in running water
Hand rubbed barrel with a baking soda paste.
Rinsed off the baking soda.
Warmed barrel under hot tap water.
Dried
Applied Johnson's paste wax and buffed slightly with old T-shirt.
Got the exact result I was looking for.
Photo does not really do justice to the finish.
BTW, the ferric chloride solution did not etch into the different metals.

[JTR]

Nice Job! 
And thanks for posting the recipe!

John

[Keithbatt]

Well, I don't have the knowledge base to say that's a great Boutet pistol barrel.... But I can say I like the way it turned out. Thanks for sharing.

Keith