Author Topic: Ebony forend tip on a half-stock English rifle (Read 11987 times)

Mike C · « **on:** March 09, 2015, 12:36:01 AM »

I am going to apply an ebony tip to a late flint period, half-stock English rifle and am of the belief that an end-grain to end-grain butt joint would not be reliable no matter the quality of the epoxy. How would you make such a joint?

Mike C
Corydon, IN

gunmaker · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2015, 12:57:54 AM »

I use ring nails, cut bbl. channel in stock, then cut a channel in piece ebony. Now mark & drive in 2 to 4 1/16" nails into end stock 1/4-3/8 deep and cut them off. put bbl. in stock slide cap against nails tap for mark. Drill cap on marks acra-glas together with a good clamp set-up. Never have one come off---YET....Tom

T*O*F · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2015, 01:19:49 AM »

I do the same as Tom, but use 2 dowels and join with black dyed Acraglas. I once also used drywall screws with the heads cut off. I have a 3 way clamp which clamps on either side of the forestock and pushes on the nosecap.

E.vonAschwege · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2015, 01:29:39 AM »

Traditionally what I've seen done is a lip protrudes from the forend much like you could make when installing a cast nosecap. The ebony is carved away to fit over the lip, then glued with hide glue as they did with horn nosecaps. That way you get lengthwise grain gluing surface instead of a butt joint, without messing about with drills and nails. Though the nails are plenty strong, I worry about the wood cracking with age. Titebond 3 or dyed epoxy works well these days instead of hide glue, though fresh hide glue is darn strong stuff.
-Eric

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2015, 03:07:44 AM »

originals were done in horn.

Mike C · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2015, 08:21:37 PM »

Thanks for your comments.
Gunmaker; I used that approach once in the past and it has worked. My fear was the risk of breaking into a pin when I shaped the forend tip. With care that should be avoidable.
Eric; I suspected your suggestion was what the English makers used. Should be very secure.
Mike; all the originals I have seen were horn but I've noticed that age cracks are common and even moth damage. Ebony is stable and less appetizing. Makes one wonder why they didn't use ebony. It was readily available, after all.
Thanks again for the input.

Mike C

Scota4570 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2015, 08:23:56 PM »

Drywall screw shanks

percman48 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 26, 2015, 06:24:16 AM »

Gentlemen: I was directed to your discussion by a very dear friend. I have consulted with him about building ebony nose caps for a pair of brass barreled pistols that I am currently working on. I am re-creating the "Liberty" and "Philad" pistols that appear in "Steel Canvas." Having never examined these pistols, I am wondering if that is what was done on the originals? Does anyone know? I considered using horn but felt that it would look shabby after a while, so I opted for Ebony to get the correct look.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #8 on:** March 26, 2015, 02:46:03 PM »

Quote from: percman48 on March 26, 2015, 06:24:16 AM

Gentlemen: I was directed to your discussion by a very dear friend. I have consulted with him about building ebony nose caps for a pair of brass barreled pistols that I am currently working on. I am re-creating the "Liberty" and "Philad" pistols that appear in "Steel Canvas." Having never examined these pistols, I am wondering if that is what was done on the originals? Does anyone know? I considered using horn but felt that it would look shabby after a while, so I opted for Ebony to get the correct look.

As I stated above HORN. I have never seen an original 18th century English gun with anything but HORN caps.

Ron Scott · « **Reply #9 on:** March 26, 2015, 04:44:30 PM »

Mike is correct in his statement about horn being the only authentic material to use. I would state that this applies to nineteenth century Muzzle Loaders as well.

flatsguide · « **Reply #10 on:** March 26, 2015, 08:35:04 PM »

Do you know if the early makers used a particular type/species of horn ?
Thanks Richard

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2015, 08:42:26 PM »

Black cow horn and buffalo horn are available in thick enough sections for nosecaps.

This horn cap has wood all the way thru.

jerrywh · « **Reply #12 on:** March 26, 2015, 08:49:51 PM »

I believe the English used African buffalo horn. A lot of Africa was English colonies and the English did a lot of hunting there. I have used both buffalo horn and ebony. I installed the horn the same way that Eric describes and the ebony I used nails for dowels and glued it on. Ebony is difficult to glue and needs to be cleaned off with acetone immediately before gluing because it has a lot of oil in it. If you wait too long after cleaning it the oil will seep out to the surface again. I recommend soaking it in Acetone overnight before gluing it. The same goes for rose wood. A good way to fake a nose cap is to pour it with black epoxy.
Then only the Shadow will know. jbweld is a good glue but if not done real well the joint will show.

eddillon · « **Reply #13 on:** March 26, 2015, 08:53:18 PM »

Quote from: Mike C on March 09, 2015, 12:36:01 AM

I am going to apply an ebony tip to a late flint period, half-stock English rifle and am of the belief that an end-grain to end-grain butt joint would not be reliable no matter the quality of the epoxy. How would you make such a joint?

Mike C
Corydon, IN

Mike, I have never seen ebony on an original. Lots of horn. Mostly Buffalo. I have water buffalo horn. Let me know if you want a piece. Easy to shape and polishes up beautifully. My preferred method of attachment is to drill longitudinally into the flattened nose of the fore end. Usually 2 holes. matching holes on horn. Fill all the holes with black dyed accraglass. Insert sheet rock screw shanks that fit loosely in the holes and cut short enough so that the surface of the fore end and the horn tip can be firmly pressed together. Shape after epoxy is set.

Mike C · « **Reply #14 on:** March 26, 2015, 11:24:33 PM »

Thanks for the offer of a piece of horn but I have already applied ebony with three metal pins. Should look good even if not historically correct.
Some of the British colonies on the African Continent had ebony. It seems like a natural choice for the job. Wonder why not???
Mike C

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2015, 12:41:26 AM »

Water buffalo was used as a great portion of the horn is solid. I have seen some greenish horn on some germanic rifles that I thought was probably cow horn.
Why not ebony? Because they were English and only horn will do!

eddillon · « **Reply #16 on:** March 28, 2015, 01:34:13 AM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on March 27, 2015, 12:41:26 AM

Water buffalo was used as a great portion of the horn is solid. I have seen some greenish horn on some germanic rifles that I thought was probably cow horn.
Why not ebony? Because they were English and only horn will do!

You nailed it, Mike. I have an old German fancy triggerguard made of horn. It had that green cast. Polished it with #0000 steel wool. It is black.

Mike C · « **Reply #17 on:** March 30, 2015, 09:29:54 PM »

"Because they were English." The simplest explanation is usually the best so I will accept it.
Mike C

Feltwad · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2015, 01:12:27 AM »

Although horn was used for the forend cap most common was silver or German silver, horn became more used in the percussion period especially on the live pigeon guns
Feltwad

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #19 on:** April 01, 2015, 01:07:09 AM »

Quote from: Feltwad on March 31, 2015, 01:12:27 AM

Although horn was used for the forend cap most common was silver or German silver, horn became more used in the percussion period especially on the live pigeon guns
Feltwad

Well, I guess the English guns exported to the colonies in the 18th century must have been different than those that stayed at home.

I'll expand now that I have more time. 18th century English full stocks had no nose cap. 18th century 1/2 stocks had horn. Or sometimes nothing. The above refers to single barrel fowling guns. Double guns of the 18th century had silver or nothing at all. At least that is what I've seen in my own collection, every English gun I've handled and every english gun I have seen pictured. i suppose I might have missed an exception somewhere......

Daryl · « **Reply #20 on:** April 01, 2015, 06:31:40 PM »

I agree- Horn is OK.

Topknot · « **Reply #21 on:** April 30, 2015, 01:38:37 AM »

Daryl,nice job on the cap. But what I really like is them sights. Wish I could see good enough to see through them. Nowadays all I can see thru is peep sights.

topknot

Daryl · « **Reply #22 on:** April 30, 2015, 03:07:03 AM »

Taylor has experience with both horn and ebony, as noted in this pistol's ebony stock.

CHARLY · « **Reply #23 on:** May 04, 2015, 12:12:18 PM »

Quote from: Mike C on March 09, 2015, 08:21:37 PM

Thanks for your comments.
Gunmaker; I used that approach once in the past and it has worked. My fear was the risk of breaking into a pin when I shaped the forend tip. With care that should be avoidable.
Eric; I suspected your suggestion was what the English makers used. Should be very secure.
Mike; all the originals I have seen were horn but I've noticed that age cracks are common and even moth damage. Ebony is stable and less appetizing. Makes one wonder why they didn't use ebony. It was readily available, after all.
Thanks again for the input.

Mike C

I live in Africa --
lot of ebony /and related hardwood /leadwood /ironwood here
---careful -these heavy hardwoods have a resin /waxy xylem core

resists glue ---best to dowel--epoxy etc--
buffalo horn tips are excellent ---so are the hooves! thick keratin ---

could send you loads --but postage/veterinary issues may be complex
good luck --
C

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Author Topic: Ebony forend tip on a half-stock English rifle (Read 11987 times)

percman48

eddillon

eddillon

CHARLY