Newcomer lock questions

[Bill Ladd]

I'm here at the forum many times a day absorbing as much as I'm able.  There's a lot to learn!

Anyways, I'm already obsessed and have a builder working on a squirrel rifle for me. I also now have a nice NC pre-carved stock and a .45 barrel that I'll be starting on soon.

That is, as soon as I decide on a lock.

I've read here, ad infinitum, that a Siler is way off base for a Southern gun and a late Ketland or a Bales would be much more appropriate.

Experts, please school me on these two locks from the virtual museum - one on a Soddy-Daisey and one on an unknown E. Tennessee:





In my very limited experience, these look like Harper's Ferry locks.  I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about that, though...

Thanks.

[Bill Ladd]

Okay, well, did a quick Google and answered my question about Harper's Ferry - not.

[Pete G.]

The Harpers Ferry is a musket lock, which is larger than a standard rifle lock. Look at the L & R Late English style with the reinforced cock. That would be a better choice for a SMR.
 
http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:late-english-flint-lock-model-900-1000-900dt-1000dt&catid=38:lar-locks&Itemid=61

[Bill Ladd]

The Harpers Ferry is a musket lock, which is larger than a standard rifle lock. Look at the L & R Late English style with the reinforced cock. That would be a better choice for a SMR.
 
http://www.lr-rpl.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:late-english-flint-lock-model-900-1000-900dt-1000dt&catid=38:lar-locks&Itemid=61

Thanks Pete, I was just looking at that.  It's close to the examples I found.  These are both East Tennessee rifles. Would a lock such as this be appropriate on a NC rifle?

[David Rase]

Here is a photo of the lock I put into the build of a Gillespie rifle from N.C.  It is a late Ketland lock from Jim Chambers that I modified by installing a double throated flint cock from one of Bob Roller's Ketland locks from the 70's and 80's.  Jerry Devaudreuil in Wooster,Ohio, has a lot of Bob Roller's parts available and I was able to purchase a flint cock and top jaw.  The throw is identical to the Chambers lock.  You do  have to weld the square tumbler hole up and retime the throw.
David   

[Bill Ladd]

Thanks David - beautiful work.

After I posted, I browsed through the NC schools section and saw a handful of guns with that type cock.

When I was a kid, I really liked the big ole muskets and have since liked a double-throated cock.

Who knows?  Be relatively easy to just get a Ketland and inlet that rather than trying to re-invent the wheel on my first go.

I'll definitely know once I have the lock in one hand and a chisel in the other...

[JDK]

Get the Chambers' Late Ketland.  You won't be sorry.  You can change the hammer to one like David used later if you wish.

While I think the double throated cock on L&R's Late English is artfully done I don't think it looks appropriate on most longrifles, especially on NC guns, as you have demonstrated above.

Enjoy, J.D.

[Keb]

I once converted a siler mountain lock to flint using siler flint hammer, pan, spring & frizzen. It turned out great and made a nice looking SMR lock. Just a thought.

[Dennis Glazener]

I've read here, ad infinitum, that a Siler is way off base for a Southern gun and a late Ketland or a Bales would be much more appropriate.

Experts, please school me on these two locks from the virtual museum - one on a Soddy-Daisey and one on an unknown E. Tennessee:

I would use it if you want to. Mathew Gillespie made a flint bear pistol that had a Goulcher flintlock with a cock that looked exactly like the first photo. I don't remember seeing any of his rifles with that type of cock but I don't doubt that he made other rifles with that same lock.

Personally I would use a Chambers Late Ketland and round the tail if you wanted something a little different than the standard late Ketland.
Dennis

[gunmaker]

Davis makes a nice small lock with double throat cock,  contract rifle #0016B  I've used those and  they work well for lite rifles/pistols....Tom

[Bill Ladd]

Thanks all.  Ya know, the more I look at it, I think I like the Ketland cock more anyway - at least for a slender longrifle. Dennis, maybe I will reshape the plate a bit.

I've already scored a good barrel and a nice stock off eBay.*  I was contemplating a budget eBay build thread.  May still, if I can score a good lock.  But since I'm going to the trouble of building a (hopefully) nice longrifle, I can't see skimping on the lock.  It has to be a good shooter too.



*Both were buy-it-now purchases and snapped up when first listed. Otherwise eBay seems to me to be about the worst place to shop. I regularly see folks bidding well beyond retail for commonplace items.  I've seen a bunch of CVA/Spanish/Belgian locks go for what one might pay for a Chambers.

[frogwalking]

Here is a late Ketland with the tail filed off.

[Bill Ladd]

Wow.  Very nice work!

[54ball]

Okay, well, did a quick Google and answered my question about Harper's Ferry - not.

 Not so fast, Take a look at at the Southern Boys rifle.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4161.0

 The above rifle inspired me to use an American/military styled lock on my Gillespie build.

 Re Davis Contract lock with a goose neck cock, one is offered with a more military double throat. This is basically their M-1803 rifle lock without the markings.



 Mock up on a Mathew Gillespie stock.



  Roughed out and tail reshaped, it's going to work out very very well.


 Here is original a Southern  rifle with a Ketland and Co lock.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=11592.0

 This rifle possibly dates to the 1790s and might be a few years older. So this confirms a Chambers late Ketland as an excellent choice. As the 19th Century progresses many makers copied the Ketland for their no name locks, so thats another reason the Ketland is a good choice.

 Many styles of those no name or American importer marked "hardware store" locks are not accurately reproduced today again about the closest is the Chambers Ketland which many were copied from.

 The Bailes, Durs Egg and Mantons while English and a much better choice in style than say a Siler were really not found on Southern rifles. Those high end English locks were usually found on English pistols and fowlers. The Bailes/Manton are about the same size as many of those mentioned no name locks that are not produced today. The Ketland tends to be a little larger as it is a little earlier than most southern flinters. Some say that the Chambers Ketland Design dates to the 1770s-80s. Keep in mind that's when it was state of the art. It was produced and copies were made for many decades.

 I know that was clear as mud.

 One last thought.... many of the locks you see on Southern rifles may have really been percussion. Many also may have been flint, converted and then converted back and a few may have had a flintlock  lock plate that the lock was converted to percussion and the rifle was built new as percussion with a flint plate.

[Bob Roller]

 The Huntington (WV)Museum of Art has a rifle credited to Simon Kenton that is a Southern gun with a military lock on it.Probably made as an expedient and that particular lock was all the maker had to work with.
 Bob Roller