"scratch " rifling in smoothbores

[bob in the woods]

I have recently seen a .62 smoothbore , with so called scratch  rifling. It was done by the owner using a course grit paper to supposedly help with accuracy when shooting patched balls. It was done from the breach, and doesn't go to the muzzle, so you can't really see that the bore isn't nice and smooth unless you drop a light done the bore. [ which is what I did ]   Kind of "cheating " isn't it ?  I asked . Not really he said….it's still not really rifled 
Anyone else seen this ?   Does it work ?   Seems crazy to me to go and ruin a nice smooth bore 

[Dphariss]

If done right it will, according to Warner-Lowe papers, shoot about as well as a rifle for 100-150 shots. The account was of Nicandor Kendall (who the papers describe as the "smartest man I ever knew") who heard of a smoothbore only turkey match coming up and rifled a barrel using his guide with a lead lap and coarse emery and he and the man that went with him "won all the turkeys the man would put up".
Would be easy to do if there was a similar length rifle barrel to use as a guide.
Some British Duelers are said to be scratch rifled.
Kendall was partnered with Robbins and Lawrence at one time. But broke away to do his own thing.

Dan

[Daryl]

I'd call it cheating, Bob.
I also suspect the gun would pattern poorly with shot.

[FlintFan]

   Kind of "cheating " isn't it ?  I asked . Not really he said….it's still not really rifled 

If it didn't help, why do it?

[WadePatton]

  Kind of "cheating " isn't it ?  I asked . Not really he said….it's still not really rifled  

If it didn't help, why do it?

Some folks have a deep-seated "need" to have an "advantage", or at least think they have some advantage.  Could work as placebo effect too.  

It is dishonesty/cheating if done in competition and i don't care to be around such folks.  Whether the "advantage" is real or only perceived, bending the rules of the game for personal advantage is unsportsmanlike conduct.

If it helps you place a ball on game more effectively, and you don't mind fouling your fowler for shot loads- go for it.

[bob in the woods]

I just looked up duelling pistols [ and according to Wikapedia , most had smoothbore barrels although " some were scratch rifled "  .   It appears that the advantage is real, as Dan P. said.    Could be looked at as a cheap way to "rifle" a barrel if you are of limited resources. 

[Daryl]

   Kind of "cheating " isn't it ?  I asked . Not really he said….it's still not really rifled 

If it didn't help, why do it?

It helped as Dan noted - they guys who did this were cheating the competition and did it on purpose - it was a round ball turkey shoot, not a trap shoot/turkey shoot. 

[mmprwarner]

Some folks have a deep-seated "need" to have an "advantage", or at least think they have some advantage.  Could work as placebo effect too.  

It is dishonesty/cheating if done in competition and i don't care to be around such folks.  Whether the "advantage" is real or only perceived, bending the rules of the game for personal advantage is unsportsmanlike conduct.

YUP what Wade said!!!

[smart dog]

I just looked up duelling pistols [ and according to Wikapedia , most had smoothbore barrels although " some were scratch rifled "  .   It appears that the advantage is real, as Dan P. said.    Could be looked at as a cheap way to "rifle" a barrel if you are of limited resources. 

So called "scratch rifling" in dueling pistols was nothing as described in this post.  It was actual shallow rifling that disappeared at the muzzle and was cut like normal rifling.

dave

[Dphariss]

I just looked up duelling pistols [ and according to Wikapedia , most had smoothbore barrels although " some were scratch rifled "  .   It appears that the advantage is real, as Dan P. said.    Could be looked at as a cheap way to "rifle" a barrel if you are of limited resources. 

So called "scratch rifling" in dueling pistols was nothing as described in this post.  It was actual shallow rifling that disappeared at the muzzle and was cut like normal rifling.

dave

I understand this. But as far as I know it was always called scratch rifling. I only mentioned it in passing to show that very shallow rifling had been used for some specialty purposes other than the Kendall account of  a smooth bore being "rifled" to fool other competitors and win a match. I should have elaborated I guess.


Dan

[Dphariss]

Some folks have a deep-seated "need" to have an "advantage", or at least think they have some advantage.  Could work as placebo effect too.  

It is dishonesty/cheating if done in competition and i don't care to be around such folks.  Whether the "advantage" is real or only perceived, bending the rules of the game for personal advantage is unsportsmanlike conduct.

YUP what Wade said!!!

I never said it was ethical. But people do unethical things all the time. I saw Kendall's ingenuity as a good joke. I have shot matches in which the rules were changed, mid match, to try to keep someone from winning who was not one of the locals or one of the "favored ones". I don't shoot SB matches so I am immune from being cheated by scratch rifling. But I still always wonder when there is some super accurate smooth bore mentioned.

Dan

[smart dog]

Hi Dan.
It was called scratch rifling in the dueling pistols and I guess if both pistols in the case are rifled, it is not really unethical, although the British did frown on the practice.  I once viewed a single flintlock pistol (the other gun was lost) made by Innes with scratch rifling.  At the muzzle it looked like nothing more than shallow scrapes but when I put a little light in the bore, you could clearly see the cut spiral grooves. It was pretty devious and according to the owner, who shot the pistol, it really worked. 

dave 

[Daryl]

I read some where the English pistols were smooth, however most or many German Dueling pistols were rifled - slightly more serious game. In the States at Rendezvous, if the pistols failed, there was always a chance to "Give him up to Green River" - or maybe that was Canadian Rendezvous - LOL.  I understand by the time the duel was over, they'd be walking on each other's innards. Quite a picture, but history it is.

[smart dog]

Hi Daryl,
The British dueling pistols were mostly smoothbore, although they were surprisingly accurate at the short ranges used during duels.  The key with the Brits was that the duelists were not to take deliberate slow aim.  They raised their pistols and fired immediately.  The guns had sights, but often the rear was just a wide "U" or notch barely useful for snap shooting and they were fitted to the owners hand so they pointed naturally.   The seriousness of the business was evident by how many times they would reload and fire.  One fire regardless of result might be enough to satisfy honor, but in real grudge matches, they  continued reloading and firing until one participant was disabled or dead.  In that context, rifling probably didn't matter much.  The time spent reloading pistols also was supposed to allow the seconds time to seek reconciliation between the antagonists.

dave

dave   

[Daryl]

tks dave - good to know

[Long John]

Well, I'm not one to question the credibility and veracity of those who are reporting the effect of this scratch rifling, and I don't "know", for certain like first-hand experience about it, but it seems hard to believe for me.  Think about how much trouble we have getting the right patch and ball combination to perform with conventional rifling!  Just how effective is a bunch of scratches, hardly a thousandth of an inch deep, going to impart rotation to a ball that will tear an .020 patch to shreds due to sheer stress if the ball is just a scoche too small?  When the powder is ignited the ball has inertia - both translational inertia and rotational inertia.  How are the very shallow scratches made by coarse emery grit going to provide enough engagement to accelerate rotationally a heavy lead ball?  It just doesn't compute in my old brain.  Something isn't right.

The dueling pistols mentioned above were rifled for the first 2/3s or so and then reamed smooth to make them appear to be smoothbores even though they had rifling.  But that rifling was deep enough to engage a conventional patch.  Yes it was a "cheat"!  But I guess if your are willing to kill somebody you aren't worrying too much about deceiving them.  Right?

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[T*O*F]

The dueling pistols mentioned above were rifled for the first 2/3s or so and then reamed smooth to make them appear to be smoothbores even though they had rifling.  But that rifling was deep enough to engage a conventional patch.

OK.....guess it's time for me to step in.  I agree with what John has just said.  I have a smoothbore fowler with said rifling.  I bought the gun used and didn't even know it was there until I pulled the breechplug to change the touch hole.  Looking at it from the breech end, I could see it.  Very similar to 3 groove musket rifling but very shallow.  I never saw any advantage to it, nor could I figure out how the ball would keep spinning when it hit the forward 1/3 of the barrel.  Surely the friction of the smooth sides would rapidly deplete any perceived spin that the ball "might" have had.

As far as I'm concerned it's a moot point, not a method of cheating as it shoots neither better nor worse than any of my other smoothbores.