Carving problems

[Scota4570]

I wish I could post a picture link but I can't, sorry.

My first attempt at carving is not going well.  It does not look smooth, even, and rounded.  The lines are a bit herkie jerkie.  The backround is not smoothing up as nice as I want.  

I transfered the patterns using carbon paper.  I "stamped in" using a veining tool.  I chased tight curves like I was engraving.  I stamped in using gouges where I could.  

I removed the background with tiny bottoming chissels, straight and skew, razor sharp. The backgrounds don't look like a perfect sanded surface.  The edges of the carvings are not perfect.  They need to be tuned.  I tried itty bitty sanding sticks.  I tried various micro chissel and x-acto blades.  Places where two raised areas depart each other in t a V shape.  The inside of the V won't clean up smooth.  

How perfect should it look?  Can I just go over it with steel wool, or something,  to even it out??  


 http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/scota45701/library/Project%20Carving

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Scota,

To post pictures here, you need to upload the pictures to a hosting site, such as PhotoBucket or TinyPic, then paste the link to the photo here.  Here's a link to a more detailed tutorial on picture posting.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=10.0

When I have a kink or elbow in my carving I use a very small, very sharp V-tool or flat chisel to trim down the point of the elbow, making the curve flow more smoothly.  For smoothing background I use the end of a ¼” flat chisel as a scraper.

I don't think steel wool will help.  Seeing pictures of your carving would help greatly in providing more targeted suggestions.

-Ron

[kaintuck]

Welcome to the madness!

When carving think "small"......like 1"X1"........that is your world for the moment......mountains and valleys, curves and stops......all tiny.......I use magnifier goggles.......then, move over 1".....and start another "world"......and look at LOTS of Internet pictures.......

Gouges, scrapers, some riffle files.....sandpaper on Popsicle sticks......slow....slow and tiny is the words....

And patience ......

Marc n tomtom

[Scota4570]

 http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/scota45701/library/Project%20Carving

The wife help me to get the PB account to run.  Scrapers chatter on this wood.  I have made some progress click on the link.  It seems like it should be more artistic and less frustrating. 

 

[frogwalking]

Here you go.  Here is Scota's cheekpiece carving.  It looks better than my first one.

[Angus]

The only way to start is to start! That is an outstanding first attempt and it takes courage.

[Dave B]

Scota, Nice looking carving, beats my first carving all to heck. The trick with the V grooves is the V tool must be razor sharp  and have a heel on the surface of the back of the edge. This will let you round out your curves with out chattering. If your getting fuzzies in the V cuts the chisel is not sharp enough. Use leather charged with buffing compound or Semi chrome paste from your Motorcycle supply shop. it makes a world of difference in how well your chisels cut if you strop them on the leather till you can see your face in the shine.

[Jerry V Lape]

Just an observation based on the chisels shown in the photos:  you might find better control with regular length chisels and gouges instead of the palm tools shown.  Pushing a palm tool is less controlled for me than tapping a full length chisel along with mallet.  The other caution is be sure to keep track of the grain in the areas you are working on.  Cutting down grain or even cross grain is going to give you better results with a smooth cut than anything upgrain.  Also, get a bench lamp with a regular bulb to provide low angle light on the work.  Also use a magnivisor to see your work in better detail.  You may already be aware of these things but they are important enough to review.  Super sharp tools are the biggest secret to success. 

[Scota4570]

If you 2X click on the image it will take you to photo bucket.  From there click the next photo symbol.  There are other images. 

The palm tools are for removing background.  I have several as skews, straight and scrapers.  There is a Pic on PB of my most ued tools.  I find the skews good at making a clean background cut in the curly wood, especially the bent neck bottoming skew.   For lighting I am using a low angle spot light.  I have one big hot 150W old style spot.  I also have an LED spot.  I made up a mast to attach the light to.  It is a clip on reflector. 

My main issue is how to clean up the edges and smooth out he scrolls.  I was envisioning a small sanding block or safe side riffler file.  Something that I could use to blend the scroll  edges smooth.    I guess the protocol is to go really slow and use what I already have. 

I forgot some to of the details of the original carving that I am copying.  I got so into what i was doing I did not include the fillets where scrolls diverge.  The near finished job looks a bit sparse.  I was thinking that some carefully considered incised or chip carvings might help it look more finished.  Any ideas? 

[Jim Kibler]

The way to clean up edges is with a knife or a skew chisel used as a knife.  This is typically part of my usually carving procedure.  You can bevel them just slightly and adjust the contours a touch in the process as well.  I use a double bevel skew sharpened to a fairly low angle.  Considerable care must be paid to grain direction or bad things will happen.

Jim

[J. Talbert]

In addition to skew chisels or a knife to clean up the edges, I like to use a 3mm No 2 or No 3 gouge held upright much like a pencil to shave off minute slivers around the edges of raised carving.  Again as Jim says, paying careful attention to the grain direction.

I also use these and tighter radiuses such as no 5 & no 7 to open up stabbed-in cuts of incised carving.

I figure with only couple more lifetimes of practice,  I'll be almost as good as Jim. 

Jeff

[Wayne Holcombe]

Looks like it was handcarved. Keep it up.

[jerrywh]

 High grade carving cannot be done with the incorrect light angle.  Neither can it be judged that way.
 The light must hit at a low angle so that any irregularities will cast a shadow that is easily seen.
 I would say your carving look exceptional for one with little experience. I recommend that you read the book [ the manual of traditional wood carving.] It is cheap and I have not found a better one.  http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=15139857477&searchurl=tn%3DThe+manual+of+traditional+wood+carving%26sts%3Dt

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Jerry's right Scota. I took his advice a few years ago and got the book.... a big help if you don't have a master to watch .............

[Ric27]

Well you are ahead of the game already in that you had good design laid down before you started and you kept your carving shallow. Carving is not for the impatient, each step takes time. If this is your first attempt keep moving you are doing fine. I noticed you used the word perfect. Wood carving is and art. This is not molded plastic. There is no perfection on this earth performed by human hands. The best you can do is to strive for a pleasing result. Like I said you are doing fine.

[Scota4570]

Thanks for the votes of confidence.  I tend to be critical of myself.   I ordered the book.  Thanks for the tip. 

I am attracted to building long rifle BECAUSE they are not an exercise in perfectionism.  They are more folk art than fine art as originally made.  There is a consistency in the "imperfections"  of a really nice rifle.  That handmade but purposeful look is attractive to me. 

regards,

Scot

[Mark Elliott]

Scota,

I would be very happy with that carving.   That said,  I would (and do) listen to Jerry.   He is the Master here.

[Mark Elliott]

I have just started to figure out the lighting issue.   Unfortunately,  you also need to be able to see what your are doing and that is a problem for me as I have a slight double image in both eyes that cannot be eliminated.   It makes carving and engraving that much more of a challenge.  It means more of the right kind of light and more magnification.    

I think this happens to all of us as we age.   I know that Wallace Gusler has been complaining for a couple of years that declines in his vision are causing him problems with his carving and engraving.   He had mentioned stopping doing it, but I don't think that is an answer.  I think we just need to work harder at working around these handicaps of aging.

One thing that I have just started to do with my engraving and will do with carving is to turn off the overhead fluorescent lights in the shop.   I have a LOT of fluorescent light in the shop ( I am sure they can see my shop from space ) and I started to realize that I couldn't put enough direct light on the subject to overcome shadows that shouldn't be there or to create shadows that should be there.    Turning off some or all of the ambient light helps you put the light you want where you need it.   This is what you do with photography, but it came as something of a flash of insight to me as I struggled to overcome some long standing issues I had with engraving.    Engraving and carving are very similar in many ways.  

I even went as far as replacing lights on the bench I use for stocking, carving, and engraving.  I replaced some square head swing arms lamps with halogen bulbs; with some regular round reflector swing arm lamps with standard Edison sockets.  I installed 5000K LED bulbs of about 1600 lumen (roughly equivalent to a 100W tungsten bulb).    These lights can get in closer to the work and also allow me to get closer to the work with more magnification ( I use prescription (much, much better than drug store )  reading glasses and Optivisor #4 lens).  

The round reflector lets me get in a little closer and the LED is much cooler than the halogen; also allowing me to work with my head right up against the reflector.   With the LED, the reflector stays cool.   It doesn't hurt that my lamps (Electrix) have a reflector inside a reflector with an insulating air space between.    Electrix lamps are all US made and are many orders of magnitude more expensive than the Chinese made lamps, but they are much better in terms of quality and function.  

Both the halogen lamps I had and the new lamps have a 45" reach.   This is much longer than anything else on the market.   I have one on each end of a 6' bench which allows me to put light from two direction on most of my engraving and carving work.   I bought my most recent lamps from MSC.   Electrix will sell to you on their web site, but they charge $60 for shipping whereas MSC charged $10.  Obviously, Electrix doesn't want to sell retail.    I quickly got the message when I saw the shipping charge.   MSC sells the lamps for MSRP so there is no difference in the actual price of the lamps,  just the shipping charge.    

I hope all this helps someone else.

[Scota4570]

Good tips on the lighting.

Anohter aspect that is giving me trouble is orienting the stock to best advantage.  I made a checkering cradle that allows me to turn the stock on the long axis.  Tilting up and down and rotating horizontal are still a problem.  Like the checkering I used to do, carving seems to be best done at a certain angle of attack.  Just laying the stock on the table was not getting it.  The trouble is that this stocks is so long that I can't figure a way to rotate it in all three axis. 

Anyone have pearls of wisdom on that one?

[Mark Elliott]

I can't help you with holding the gun.  It always seems to be a problem for me at one time or another.  It guess it is for everybody.  I have two versa type vises on my gun stocking bench.   The one in the center can tilt and rotate.   The one on the end just rotates.   I have a rest on the opposite end of the bench.   The vise on the end of the bench can be replaced with a rest that just slides over the post for the vise.   I also use quick clamps to clamp the rifle to the rests so it won't slide.    Between all those things,  I manage to orient the gun some way to work on it.   

Some people use a carving vise or modify their versa vises so that they have at least one articulating jaw (it swivels) to better grip the stock a odd angles.   I find that your standard floating vise liner (just a U shaped piece of plywood that slips over the screw on the vise and covers the jaws) with a thick piece of leather securely holds most any part of the gun that can fit between the jaws.    I think everyone has their own setup.  I  have yet to see one that I thought was perfect. 

I did fairly recently make myself a Nicholson bench that I use for jointing operations.   It has a modified two screw design vise where I replaced one of the screws with a post that locks up when racked.    I use this vise to hold the stock/rifle vertically, if needed.   Usually this is only needed for hand sawing the stock which is not yet routine.  I also have two traditional saw benches that I can use for sawing the stock.  In those cases, you sit or kneel on the stock to cut it.   I guess that could also work for some carving or checkering operations.

If I just can't get the right angle for something and it is a delicate operation,  I might just hold the rifle in my hands or lap to do what I need to do.   I just figure it out as I go. 

I always like to look at other peoples setup for ideas, but nothing as yet jumped out at me as the perfect way to do things.   In the old days,  they had a wood workers vise and a post vise, and that was it.   They didn't tilt or swivel, but they figured out some way to hold the work to do what they had to do.  If you have a jointers bench,  bench dogs or holdfasts are a real good way to hold things in place.   I am not sure they would be terribly useful for most gun work.   
   

[Acer Saccharum]

I lay the stock on sandbags for carving and backgrounding. This allows moderate rotational advantages, as well as getting just the right glancing light exactly where I need it.

You think your background looks pretty good....good, that is, until the finish goes on.

[jerrywh]

 If you look at some of the best European wood carving on guns you will notice that the carvers often did something to make the background more attractive and less of a problem in finishing.  The hardest part of carving the type you are doing is to get a perfect looking background. This was accomplished by putting in a background design or adding floral or some kind of scene in place of a smooth back ground. 
This makes the carving look harder to do but it actually is easier in my opinion. It also adds to the appeal if done well.
 In the case of an American long rifle however we are expected to stay within the limits of tradition. That is where the word contemporary come into play as in the Contemporary Longrifle Association.
 This is an example of mine   http://jwh-flintlocks.net/kelly_ls_comp7.html

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Outstanding work Jerry, and although not a huge surprise, a pleasure to view, all the same.  I have found a profound difference in ease of carving, depending upon the style.  Big sweeping "S" and"C" scrolls in Rococo carving is one thing and it has its own challenges, but doing fine Baroque work as in European guns, is quite another matter.
I think Scota's work is quite acceptable, and I'm sure he would like to improve certain aspects, here and there, but keep in mind that it is a journey we take when attempting this work.  One should not expect to arrive before having made the trip.  I'd say finish her up, and move on. 

[Acer Saccharum]

When Taylor says that Scota's work is completely acceptable, I must agree. It's already better than many(most) original rifle carvings. But Scota has to be pleased with his own work. We cannot tell him when it's good enough, only he can determine this. That is why there is another rifle for him to do.

[Mark Elliott]

Jerry,  thanks for the idea.   I like cross-hatching/checkering.   I never thought of it as a technique to hide the background.   I think I will start adding more of that.   Of course,  I had already figured out that the more stuff you include in an engraving,  the more you obscure the defects.