Author Topic: New KY Rifle web site  (Read 11670 times)

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
New KY Rifle web site
« on: March 19, 2015, 04:19:55 AM »
Have a "sneak peek".  Help us with your ideas, please.

http://americankentuckyrifleart.com/index.html

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 04:58:58 AM »
I would suggest that you use WordPress to manage it as a blog and use a magazine type theme.   You can use the WordPress default theme, buy one, or make one.  It would be all HTML 5 and CSS.    Right now, it is all jumbled up and hard to read.   It needs to be broken up into articles that look like a magazine page.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 05:37:12 AM »
I am also not crazy about the yellow.   I think it should be basically black text on a white background with photos and small color accents to add color.   Much of the text is also too small to be very legible on my screen.  I use one of the newer 4K montiors, and even at 27", a lot of your text is hard to read.   The multi-color fonts for the links make it worse.

Also,  it is not readily apparent that the links are links to other sites.   You need to find a better way to do that.   I just use the links feature in WordPress to handle that along with widgets and CSS to place it where I like on a page, usually in the sidebar.   Like I said, look at the graphic design of good magazines and web sites.

SEO should also guide your layout and design.    This http://www.markelliottva.com/wordpress/intro/ is one of the better pages from my gunmaker web site.  At least, it has one of the better SEO scores.   It has multiple layers of headlines(1-3) and outline organization.   All the headlines (1-3) contain your SEO keywords for that page.   The keywords are also salted throughout the text in  both bold and underlined.   They keywords are also included in the "alt" tags in the photos, and there should be plenty of photos or images.    All of this adds to your SEO score, but you can't overdo it. 

 I use the SEOPressor plug-in for my WordPress web pages.   It is a relatively expensive plug-in, but I do find it very helpful.   However,  it really does take a lot of time and work to create a page with a high SEO score.   You also have to factor in links to social media; pingbacks; and  ALL the major search engines, not just Google; to name just a few things.    There is a lot to SEO; more than I have time to cope with.  Only a few of my pages and posts have a good SEO score.   It takes too much work and I already spend too much time on the computer.

Anyway,  If you go with WordPress, you can set-up layers of administrators and authors to help.   If you can get a lot from web savy authors (there are more of us all the time) to help build the site, that would help.   

Personally,  I wouldn't want to be responsible for more than one or two high SEO score articles or pages a year.   I (like everybody else) have lots of my own work to do, and each post/page could easily be a days worth of work.    I spend hours on one of my posts.   

A good web page or post should be thought of as good newspaper or magazine article that will require lots of quality time from a good author, a good editor, and probably a graphic artist and/or photographer.   Most of us have to do ALL those things, and probably NONE of them really well.   However,  I know there are lots of folks on ALR with those skills, many who do them professionally in their day jobs.   The problem is giving them a small enough assignment that they can and are willing to work it into their other responsibilities.

You have to remember that MANY make their livings doing this, so it may be hard getting the most skilled to want to donate their personal time for that which they are normally paid very well.   I am willing to donate some of my time, but then again,  my skills are not nearly at the level of someone that does these things for a living.   I just know enough to know what I should be doing, but don't have the interest, time, or will to learn and do more.   You are probably going to have to rely on a lot of people like me, sort of semi-pros.   

If you need help setting up a WordPress site, I don't mind doing that.   Just getting one setup is just a few hours work.   I would like to recommend my host for that; Dreamhost.   They have their own data centers in Southern CA and Northern VA.  The are all open source and specialize in supporting WordPress sites.   They are also a lot of fun.   There's are the only vendor newsletters I ever read.   

I hope this helps for a start.





Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 06:26:36 AM »
Mark , Very helpful,thank you.   I practice Medicine much better than I attempt webmastering...obviously first build. Chose "Web.com" because it had a 5** rating ( on the net , of course). My plan is to get the site going, time is flying, and with time and money will either redo myself, perhaps with "Wordpress" or have a professional or KY Rifle colleague with webmaster and art talent rebuild it. It is a start that hopefully will add new and youthful potential enthusiast, if they find information EASILY in their "digital language, using their communicationand learning tools"
Hurricane

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 09:23:38 AM »
It is a start that hopefully will add new and youthful potential enthusiast,

Fred,

To be blunt,  you are going to have to do a whole lot better to attract anyone youthful with that web site.   Aside from all the other problems,  it is going to need to be accessible on mobile devices, both Apple and Android.   That requires even more expertise.   

If you are in a hurry and have the money,  I would suggest that you pay professionals to get it setup.   There are plenty available in your area.  I would suggest a local firm that specializes in web marketing.  Professionals can setup a WordPress (or some other content management system) site that you or others can add content to without having to worry about many of the technical details.   You can also pay the professionals to handle the SEO for you, and even do the posting if you provide the basic content.   It will cost you the price of a very nice longrifle to get it started, but I figure you can cover it. 

If you don't mind sending your money offshore,  you can get more bang for your buck in India.    Some of the best IT companies in the world are in India and their labor is much cheaper.    Many of the largest American companies sub-contract a substantial amount of their IT work to India and never tell their clients who is actually doing the work.  Money can solve a lot of problems.

Best,

Mark

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 05:09:17 PM »
Like it or not, a website's content is used to judge its author.  Perhaps this is just a hastily done precursor, but it is rife with spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors.  They are too numerous to mention.  These are some of the most obvious:

related aspects
realted subjects

assocated accoutrements
Associated "art" objects.....Known as "Accouterments

These are just the simple ones present within the same sentences or paragraph.
I strongly suspect you are going to need a good proofreader and/or editor.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2015, 07:46:36 PM by T*O*F »
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 07:23:56 PM »
Thanks..will do as time permits as a priority.

Offline Nate McKenzie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1019
  • Luzerne Co. PA
    • Nathan McKenzie Gunmaker
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 08:17:27 PM »
Why not contact Rick Sheets for help.  He is a member here and has done quite a few of our web sites.
http://www.blackpowder411.com/website-services-2/

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 08:31:14 PM »
Will continue to update and correct. Have learned websites look differnet on different browsers???? Try
"CHROME."

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2015, 02:29:47 AM »
Fred, I do like what you have so far. I think what is missing and has always been missing is having the more experienced gunbuilders  donate a little of their time to make videos of different stages of gun building and really get down to the smallest details of building to show the newcomers that has no experienced builders anywhere close by to show them the intricate details of building. And also the best way to go about doing the different little jobs involved and also why it should be done this way. If we are going to attract new people into our passion , It has got to be made easier for a newby to get all the information needed. Im sure that I am opening up a big can of worms but this would be a godsend for many. There is just too many unexplained questions for a person new to this hobby to have to deal with . Look back thru the years at the many new names that pop up on this forum with the new people wanting to learn to build. They buy the books and dvds and watch them over and over but in the end their names dissapear from the forum. If we are going to get more people involved it has to be made a little easier for them to be able to make themselves a rifle. Im not talking about a fancy carved and engraved masterpiece , but just a functional rifle. F ancy comes later. And also most working class people can barely scrape up enough to buy all the parts for a rifle, much less driving cross country in a ragged out car for week long classes and motel rooms. Most have the heart ,but the money?                                                
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 03:21:52 AM by Topknot »
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2015, 02:35:39 AM »
Fred,

You do need to test with multiple browsers and multiple hardware platforms (i.e phones and tablets as well as laptops and desktops).   The resolution of devices can vary widely from 640x480 to 2560x1440 (4K) or more.   Choosing a good content management system can HELP you to accommodate all the various platforms.

It would seem that you are really starting out from scratch here.   I think it would be best for you to pay for professional help.    

« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 02:42:24 AM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2015, 02:40:55 AM »
Tim,

I don't think Fred really wants to get into building with his site.  I think his intention is to focus on the American longrifle as fine art.   As far as I am concerned,  that is fine and appropriate.   Building is the focus of ALR.   

What you are requesting is more along the lines of what I want to do with the handmade rifle/pistol project I have up on IndieGoGo.   That is why I was asking for so much money.   What I was planning on doing is much more than just building a couple of guns. 

Mark

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2015, 03:08:28 AM »
Fred I am sorry for the mix-up, but I do like what you have done so far.

Mark, I like your idea, tell me more!

                                     topknot
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline E.vonAschwege

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3118
    • von Aschwege Flintlocks
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2015, 03:15:44 AM »
Fred, I like what your goal is with the website and trying to promote the longrifle as a form of artwork.  It looks like you've already found a foundation for hosting your website.  Before publishing anything further, I would really grease it up and get it working fully.  Don't publish a little bit at a time if you can avoid it.  

Contrary to what a lot of people want you to believe, a good website doesn't have to cost much at all.  I pay 60 bucks for two years to host my website, filled in with easy to use customizable templates, colors, patterns, and fonts.  There's a bit of a learning curve, but there's lots of options for Search Engine Optimization and it's free or very inexpensive to use.  I use weebly.com, but squarespace and wix.com are also popular and can give very professional looking results with a little effort.  They also have options for appearance in mobile devices and on different browsers.  Just some musings,
-Eric
Former Gunsmith, Colonial Williamsburg www.vonaschwegeflintlocks.com

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 03:33:57 AM »
Eric,

Fred is a physician, and a very smart man, but when it comes to web technology,  I suspect his learning curve is a lot steeper than yours was or is.  Actually, I suspect your learning curve was and is much shallower than mine; and I spent 23 years in IT.  Your youth is a real advantage.   One gets slower and stupider (I don't even know if that is a real word)  as one gets older.   It will happen to you too.   ;D   

Fred is going to need help.


Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2015, 03:37:06 AM »
Fred I am sorry for the mix-up, but I do like what you have done so far.

Mark, I like your idea, tell me more!

                                     topknot

Here is the link to the IndieGoGo campaign; https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/a-transmedia-exploration-of-18th-c-armsmaking-tech/x/9909817


Offline Larry Pletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1748
    • Black Powder Mag
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2015, 03:39:12 AM »
Fred,
I wish you the best in your project.  I think it was Mark that mentioned WordPress as  publishing flatform.  My son set up site on WordPress because he thought I'd get along better with my limited experience.  

One feature he used to pick the WordPress template was "responsive".  This means that the template automatically formats for smart phones, tablets, etc.  I feel this is a big advantage with the increasing use of cells and tablets.  Other publishing platforms probably offer responsive templates; I'd encourage you to make sure that your advisors consider this feature.

Again, I wish you success,
Larry Pletcher
"Pletch"  
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2015, 01:41:23 PM »
Eric,

Fred is a physician, and a very smart man, but when it comes to web technology,  I suspect his learning curve is a lot steeper than yours was or is. 

Then we will loose him soon.....his pt caseload will increase, ICD 11 will soon frustrate him will billing changes, and those hospital rounds will tire him out.......the healthcare field will suck every last drop of energy, and time outta a person......when I'm haveing a heavy week, AND on-call, I almost start to sell all my stuff, and just want to watch TV....... :-\ and I only work in a pharmacy!

Fred is climbing a very steep slope........

Marc n tomtom

54ball

  • Guest
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2015, 06:54:50 PM »

  I like it.
  Due to subject matter IMHO a whip zip bang web sight is not going to attract youth. It should be easy to navigate and pleasant and for me it is.

 Rod and Custom Magazine went all out for youth in the early 2000s. At the time I was in my early 30s. The magazine made clear it's push was for 15 to 25 year olds.  Honestly, as a subscriber I felt left out. It made me feel old.

 The sad reality was, the whole premise was unrealistic. How many 16 year olds are building pre-1948 hot rods? The economic reality was most in that age group cannot afford such even if they wanted it and had the interest. Daddy could buy it...maybe,... but that's a whole different target audience.

 So how many teenagers are building longrifles? Like old time hot rods those do not come about until the average Joe has some disposable income usually after the kids leave home.

 There are some exceptions. I want my son to be able to turn a wrench. He is in love and with all things.... a 58 Olds and a Willys 47 CJ2A. He hunts with a Carolina Smoothbore and loves it. Likely he will drive 64 F-100 that we have. My point his he did not buy that stuff...Daddy did.

 IMHO you need to identify your target audience. Do you want to preach to the choir or do you want to educate to the unwashed masses?

 In my opinion the only mainstream youth you will get at least at first will be  students. I would target the site for....

 History students
 Art students
 Cultural students
 Fashion students
 Folk students

 I would also target new builders and budding students of the Kentucky rifle. I would try to be inclusive and Apolitical as much as possible.

 Your resources....

 I think you should what Wilkepedia or Backwoods Magazine does. Be willing to take submitted articles. You may get some very good information for your site. Keep in mind though you'll have to edit that content. Not really for spelling and such but more for remaining apolitical. If you get some good articles I think you will have a good resource for term papers for art and history students.

 As far grammar and spelling, In my opinion that may add to the resource. If a student is quoting family tales from East Tennessee and some of that phonetic spelling and accent comes through...so be it. You are just providing the raw data it's up to the student to polish it. Make that known.

 You need to let it be known that the information from your site is available for student and personal use as long as credit is given to the authors. It also should not be for public "outside" of scholarly presentation unless permission is given.

 It's OK to have things geared toward grade school as well as college level. For instance What does Macaroni mean in Yankee Doodle?

 For the more advanced....What is mannerism? What is Baroque? What is Rococo? How do these art movements relate to 17th, 18th and 19th Century society? How and why did the fashions change? How does that relate to the development of the American longrifle?

 The amounts of subjects are vast.

 If education is your goal. Once You are up and running contact Home school organizations, school boards and such. Let people know that this resource is available. 

 Those are some of my thoughts I could go on but I think you get the point.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2015, 12:36:07 AM »
I tend to agree with 54ball in most all his points.   

I came to the longrifle through books in my school library, at a time when we were approaching the American Bicentennial, and the mass media was chocked full of content about Colonial America.    I started building because I couldn't afford to buy, and I could hardly afford to build.   My parents and grandparents support of my interest was as probably as important as anything.   Without it,  I am not sure I would be where I am today with regard to my study, building and collecting of longrifles.

My father, mother, and maternal grandfather made most everything I do today possible.  My mother bought me my first pocket knife and my first rifle.  That's right, my mother did those things for me.  My father joined an expensive (for us)_ gun club for me, and found someone to instruct me in shooting muzzleloaders even though he didn't have any particular interest himself.   He took me to the local gun collectors meetings and to gun shows.   My mother took me to art school in the Summer and to museums.   My father let me use his workshop and taught me about wood work, at least to the best of his ability as a modern cabinet maker.   My maternal grandfather WORKED as a machinist for over 50 years and he taught me ALL the fundamental metalworking skills I use today.   I am willing to bet the rest of you had this same kind of support.    It was probably more important than anything else in me being who and what I am for good and for bad. 

As to the financial component, after I went to college, I was around 30 before I could afford to come back to the building.  I was in my late 40's before I could afford any original longrifles.    I am in my 50's now, and just starting to get good at the building, and developing some sophistication in my appreciation of the originals.  This is, for most, an old mans game.   The changes in the economy are only going to make that worse.

It is going to take some real creativity, and outside the box thinking, to reach today's youth.   Even with what I said above,   I think providing exposure is important for future interest.   I am just not sure how to go about that.    I do know that it will take more than a web site, even a great web site; which, no disrespect intended,  Fred is not likely to be able to produce.   

I am starting to think the best thing any of us can do is find a way to become involved in young peoples lives and share our experience and interest that way.   

Fred,  you have kids coming to you everyday.   Do you have longrifles in your office?   I understand the political sensitivity of that where you practice, but I am  confident that will make more of an impact than a web site.    With that approach, I am pretty sure that you will spark some interest in a number of kids along the way.    It most likely won't bear fruit for 30 or 40 years, but it can plant the seed.   

Just some thoughts.

Mark

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2015, 01:22:28 AM »
Mark, It really helps alot to have your family backing you and teaching you woodworking. But alot of people just dont have all that and knows absolutely nothing about woodworking or metal workingbut truly want to get into gun building because they just love the looks of them old timey looking guns. If this site could just show them everything they need to know to build their first plain gun and all the details on how to go about doing it, then I believe truly that the future of the longrifle and this site would have truly done its job and the future would be secured for all things longrifle. there is just too many questions that are not answered in books and dvds.everything needs to be slowed down some and go into more detail so our junior members will not get discouraged and quit. Just that one rifle will get them hooked for life.

                                                 topknot
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2015, 02:22:09 AM »
Topnot,

What you propose would be good.    ALR does what you suggest to some extent.    I can see how what you want might be done, but it would be expensive in either money or time with time being money.   I have struggled with this very thing since I created ALR in its current incarnation in 1997.   That's right, ALR is going on 20 year old with nary a face lift.   

I tried my best to find a way to make some money out of it to take it further, but it just didn't work.   Presumably, Dennis gets enough in contributions and volunteer assistance to keep things limping along as they are, but I don't see where the resources will come from to do more.   It will, at the very least,  take leadership for which I no longer have the energy.    I am willing to be one of the little worker bees but nothing more.   

Who has the knowledge and vision to do something more?   Who can inspire others with the right resources to donate their time and money to the cause?  Those are the big questions here, and I don't have the answers.    I have always been better at analysis, design, and planning than execution.  I am sure it comes as no surprise to anyone that my people skills suck.   I can provide the skills I have to the team, but I am not a leader.   

We need a driven, energetic, leader.   I have seen a number try only to be beaten into submission because of the lack of appreciation and support.    You know,  you can only beat your head against a wall but for so long.   

What we really need is to find a 20 or 30 something to take all this to the next level.   This is not a job for us old folks.   We need a young person who has the skills and energy to reach other young people.   We need to be looking for a few NEW LEADERS for the next 20 -30 years.   Us old guys can help, but we need to fall in behind new blood.   If we do that, then the future will hold builders and collectors of longrifles and all the traditional crafts who will far exceed our abilities and skills.   That is the way it is supposed to be. 

What do the rest of you think?  Should we be concentrating on recruiting indians or chiefs?   

 

 

Offline Topknot

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • www.yahoo.com
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2015, 03:17:19 AM »
Mark,You have made some very good suggestions and I truly hope they can be inacted upon. What I was trying to say in a nutshell is if we ,you and everyone else on this site could and would make it a high priority to help the new members ,young and old to ensure that they build their first longrifle, then every one has done their job. everything else will fall into place and they will be members for life. It also would be totally up to them in how far they want to take this.learning carving, and engraving is something that not everyone will be able to without classes and that will come later. what im saying is we need to ensure that they have all the help that they need , including the minute little details to get that one plain gun built. Having video tutorials on every part of of building that first rifle would be greatly helpful and why it  should  be done this way. Just enough information to get that first rifle built.  All the history and the appreciation of the longrifle as art will come automatically.

                                                                                   topknot
TIM COMPTON, SR.

    layover to catch meddlers!

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2015, 06:02:33 AM »
I truly appreciate everyones thoughts and please continue...good or bad. Bruce and I are making a modest effort based on what we think we can offer. I understand each of your perspectives.

As to my office...the rifles are on occassion there...usually arrive from a purchase or trade and I do ( selective) show them to patients, parents and staff....and they are absolutely "awed" at their beauty and history. I am however politely declined when I offer to go to a school with an offer to "teach" history, so thus the "INTERNET".

What I also know is that with this effort.....the answer is __?___! And I am not being arrogant or sarcastic. Without Tim , Dennis  and others...No ALR, our top site, and without "The Museum Committee"....no ALR Library and Museum....800 rifles on display for the whole world to see.  Who really knows. We are not selling anything, no agenda other than to offer to provide easier access to "knowledge" the best way we can. So join us. Be optomistic!!! THE ANSWER TO NO EFFORT IS A KNOWN!

Any suggestions welcome. Sites to be added; email us your suggestions. Contact Bruce and I personally or continue this or other threads

Thank you

Hurricane and Nord.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 11:42:22 PM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »

Offline Hurricane ( of Virginia)

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2081
Re: New KY Rifle web site
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2015, 05:12:26 PM »
Partially built.  Though you viewers are not the prime target audience, our goal is to assist  new interested persons to find information easily. We would appreciate your thoughts.

                                http://americankentuckyrifleart.com/


Thank you,
Hurricane and Nord
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 05:17:16 PM by Hurricane ( of Virginia) »