Author Topic: Good oil finish?  (Read 14430 times)

FrontierMuzzleloading

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Good oil finish?
« on: March 20, 2015, 01:10:15 AM »
I see linspeed. Linseed oil makes for a great looking finish but takes forever, especially on a customers rifle stock.

Does linspeed really build up faster and take a lot less time?

I also see Chambers oil stock finish.

I'd like to slowly move from truoil as it leaves a plastic feel as it builds up thicker as the coats go on. Great for a gloss finish but the rifles I have coming in, I want a natural feel to them like linseed oil, but without all the months of rubbing them down.

Suggestions?

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2015, 01:12:56 AM »
Get Chambers finish and apply it as he describes..... any number ow ways to soften the final look but his oil varnish and method works and is easy. Some others are fun and work well but are a ton of work.....
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Okefinokee Outlaw

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2015, 02:05:01 AM »
I use Chambers.  Very easy to work with.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2015, 03:13:24 AM »
 True Oil, Linspeed, Chambers Oil - Permalyn, Tung Oil or 1850 Danish Oil with Tung Oil. Pumice softens the appearance if too shiny, refection.

Any of these will make a Grande-Piano-type finish - like glass smooth - it's just more work, but will make whatever finish you want.

The last rifle stock I did the mirror finish on, took 56 thin coats total - 2-3 days between them to make sure they were cured to fill and finish off with just 3 very thin coats over the wood's high spots - thus 53 were needed to fill and a rub-down with rough in a paste for final polish.  The final finish was like a mirror and looked a foot deep.
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2015, 04:13:45 AM »
I keep playing with different finishes, but the one I use most works well and isn't too much work.  

First,  you need to make sure your stock is properly scraped and whiskered. You need to check everything with a raking light.   It needs to be perfectly smooth with all defects addressed before the stain and top finish goes on.  If you don't do this, you are going to have to apply more coats of oil, rubbing down with steel wool or Scotch-Brite pads in between.   It is better and quicker to just get the surface right before you start the finish.


You will need to burnish after you stain and before you go to the next step.  You can do this with 0000 steel wool, a light gray Scotch-Brite pad, or a burnisher.  People use all sorts of things as burnishers including hard wood, bone, antler, or metal.   I recently got a couple of period correct poliseurs (burnishers made from broom straw) to try. 

I then apply a spit coat of seedlac (I mix it from the actual seedlac and alcohol).  This partially seals the wood.   A turpentine thinned version of your final oil finish can also be used, but I think the seedlac seals better.  

I then apply a final set of coats of a equal mixture of linseed oil, tung oil, and Danish oil with the appropriate amount of Japan Drier.    Two or three coats of this will probably be enough.   You keep applying thin coats of oil until it starts to gloss over.   Then it is time to rub it down with a white Scotch-brite pad once the finish is dry.  

Oil finishes should be applied just a drop at a time on your finger, rubbed in as far and wide as possible.   With proper driers, an oil finish thus applied should dry in a couple hours.   UV is necessary for linseed oil based finishes to cure, so, putting the stock out in the sun is best.  

« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 04:26:12 AM by Mark Elliott »

Offline Stophel

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2015, 06:29:26 AM »
Call me old fashioned, but I like a real boiled linseed oil finish.  Problem is, you cannot just buy a little plastic bottle of real boiled linseed oil.  Ya gotta make it.  I have some of differing consistencies that I use.  It has lead carbonate and burnt Umber driers added.  Some is boiled only a little, and not much thicker than raw oil. I use this, along with some aged turpentine for the first few applications so it soaks into the wood well.  Each L I G H T application will take a day or two of all day FULL sunlight to dry (though I will leave it out another day or so to make sure).  I can tell by the changing smell when it's dry.  Wipe it on lightly (do NOT "flood and soak"), and wipe off ALL the excess from the surface of the wood.  Linseed oil is an in-the-wood finish, not an on-the-wood finish.  A few applications will get the grain started to fill up and then I switch to the good stuff.  Linseed oil that is boiled until it is T H I C K.  So thick and stiff that you can't do anything with it without a lot of turpentine.  Don't worry about putting this stuff on lightly.  Lay it on, and leave a thin amount on the surface.  This stuff will easily dry within a day of sun.  You have to watch it.  You want it ALMOST dry, but preferably not really dry (if it dries all the way, it gets even tougher to get off the surface, but it can be done).  Now, here is where all the "hand rubbing" is in a "hand rubbed linseed oil finish".  With burlap, cut all the oil off the surface of the stock.  It's best, if at all possible, to run the burlap across the grain in a shoe shine motion.  This cuts it off the surface without sucking too much out of the grain, as it can do if you run along with the grain (but is necessary in some areas).  It's not easy.  It's hard work.  It hurts.     :o  If necessary, a little bit of turpentine can be added to the burlap to help cut off too-stiff oil, but not too much, as you don't want it softening up and removing oil in the grain.  Two or three of these thick coats are usually sufficient to get a fully filled and finished stock.

Hard work?  Yes.  But nothing looks or feels as good as a good linseed oil finish.   ;)





As for store-bought stuff, I have read good things about Lin-Speed, but I have no experience with it.  It is supposed to be a highly refined and purified oil, with nothing added.  The purer the oil, the faster it dries.  I've been intending to give it a try, but haven't gotten around to it.

Tried and True "Danish Oil" is a pre-polymerized linseed oil, with nothing added (I'm not sure how they polymerize it... I think it's lightly heated, but not boiled).  I've fooled with it a little, and it seems to do well.  Still, you're not gonna be able to put two or three coats on in a day, and like all these linseed oil finishes, without sunlight, it won't dry much at all.

I once finished a stock with the Tried and True "Varnish oil".  This is linseed oil with a little rosin added.  Now, I think this works fairly well as an oil finish, with the added water resistance of the rosin.  However, the stock I did, I did use it as a top coat too, and I think it just doesn't have enough resin in it to be hard enough for a top varnish.  So, I have taken a half a can of it, and then dissolved some rosin (no, I don't know how much) into some red turpentine I've had aging for some time, and put in as much as would dissolve, and poured that into my can to fill it up.  This does NOT work as a cut-off-the-surface oil finish, as it is way too stiff and hard, but as a built up varnish, it seems to do pretty well.  Dries quick enough for me (but probably not quick enough for most people) and makes a pretty tough finish that is clearly more water resistant than oil alone.

I personally do not like on-the-surface varnish finishes, though, as I have never come up with a way to do it and keep the carving clean and not globbed up too bad.  A major pain.  So I generally stick with the good ol' linseed oil.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 07:01:29 AM by Stophel »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2015, 06:53:32 AM »
I see linspeed. Linseed oil makes for a great looking finish but takes forever, especially on a customers rifle stock.

Does linspeed really build up faster and take a lot less time?

I also see Chambers oil stock finish.

I'd like to slowly move from truoil as it leaves a plastic feel as it builds up thicker as the coats go on. Great for a gloss finish but the rifles I have coming in, I want a natural feel to them like linseed oil, but without all the months of rubbing them down.

Suggestions?

First. The linseed oil from the hardware store is not stock finish and dries too slow and will water spot. It requires significant rework and additives to make it a really good stock finish that is easy to use.
Tru-oil is too hard.
Chambers oil finish is pretty good from reports.
I make my own from lumberyard boiled oil but it requires reheating, adding driers and killing acids in the oil so its best to buy Chambers.
There are many threads on oil  finishes here. If an oil finish needs thinning as for a seal coat use REAL Turpentine not petroleum solvent its better if the turp is put in a wide shallow pan for at least a day better 3 before thinning the oil with it.
With the right oil its possible to finish Maple in 2 coats and American walnut in 5 to 7 in less than a week.

Two coats on plank cut sugar maple. Shop cooked linseed oil that makes a soft oil varnish. Finished in 2 days.




One night for the seal coal then the second coat of a thick oil rubbed on very thin. Next day its ready for service.
Hunting rifle, put on all the seal coat it will soak up over an hour or two, checking it and adding oil the "dry" spots. Let is set an hour or so wipe dry and its ready to use. Or put it in the outside hot sun for a time then rub it off since some oil will come out of the pores and will need to be wiped or rubbed off. Burlap will take if off if done promptly and will not damage the stain.
Dan
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Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2015, 03:42:43 PM »
I am a bit lazy when it comes to finishes; Chambers, I love it. I used some dried up Chambers on this gun and added mineral spirits to the bottle until it was thin enough to use. I was surprised it worked considering it was like thick maple syrup before I thinned it. I applied 4 or 5 thin coats for this degree of finish.

« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 03:45:55 PM by Eric Krewson »

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2015, 06:08:45 PM »
There are no finishes that are better, just different.   All finishes will dry to a film.  Some dry faster than others, some have more solids to make a thicker film.  The result is mostly about how you use it than the product.

Having finished hundreds of stock and tried about everything I can find I have some observations.  The process is always the same.  Make the wood smooth.  Stain the wood, if needed.  Fill the grain.  Finish with a top coat.  That is it. 

The top coat determines the look.  Finish built up on the filled surface give a piano or bowling pin look.  Not filling the grain and not building up on the surface looks more old timie look.   Maple fills faster than walnut.  Maple is harder to stain than walnut thus limiting sanding between coats because you don't want to break through the filled surface.  Carvings add a layer of difficulty to the process.  Linseed oil never really dries, Varnishes do. 

I am rambling..........these days I tend to use spar varnish or lacquer to seal the grain.  I put linseed over that.  Linseed smells nice.  I also use slackum periodically on some stocks.    I no longer obsess about a perfect finish or over think it. Once you use the rifle a while it won't matter.  Wax or slackum over the worn surface looks good to me.   

Offline Daryl

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2015, 07:37:43 PM »
 ;) = True Oil





Daryl

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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2015, 11:51:27 PM »
Scot,

I think those are excellent observations, given that most everybody is using some form of linseed based finish, with perhaps a spirit varnish seal coat.

There are no finishes that are better, just different.   All finishes will dry to a film.  Some dry faster than others, some have more solids to make a thicker film.  The result is mostly about how you use it than the product.

Having finished hundreds of stock and tried about everything I can find I have some observations.  The process is always the same.  Make the wood smooth.  Stain the wood, if needed.  Fill the grain.  Finish with a top coat.  That is it. 

The top coat determines the look.  Finish built up on the filled surface give a piano or bowling pin look.  Not filling the grain and not building up on the surface looks more old timie look.   Maple fills faster than walnut.  Maple is harder to stain than walnut thus limiting sanding between coats because you don't want to break through the filled surface.  Carvings add a layer of difficulty to the process.  Linseed oil never really dries, Varnishes do. 

I am rambling..........these days I tend to use spar varnish or lacquer to seal the grain.  I put linseed over that.  Linseed smells nice.  I also use slackum periodically on some stocks.    I no longer obsess about a perfect finish or over think it. Once you use the rifle a while it won't matter.  Wax or slackum over the worn surface looks good to me.   

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2015, 12:08:56 AM »
I have also used a fair amount of walnut oil . It is a drying oil , as is linseed oil.

Offline Stophel

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2015, 02:11:07 AM »

Having finished hundreds of stock and tried about everything I can find I have some observations.  The process is always the same.  Make the wood smooth.  Stain the wood, if needed.  Fill the grain.  Finish with a top coat.  That is it.  
....
The top coat determines the look.  Finish built up on the filled surface give a piano or bowling pin look.  Not filling the grain and not building up on the surface looks more old timie look.   Maple fills faster than walnut.  Maple is harder to stain than walnut thus limiting sanding between coats because you don't want to break through the filled surface.  Carvings add a layer of difficulty to the process.  Linseed oil never really dries, Varnishes do.  


I would have to disagree with this.  First of all, linseed oil WILL dry.  Yes indeed.  IF it wasn't slopped on too heavily, and it's thoroughly dried with sufficient sunlight and airflow, it will be quite solid.  It will NOT, however, be hard.  Linseed oil dries to a gummy, rubbery consistency.  This is why it is not good as a top coat.  It's simply too soft.  This is why resins are added to make it harder (you're basically making an alloy, hard resin+soft oil)

A linseed oil finish should be an in the wood finish, not an on the wood finish.  There should be NO oil left standing on the surface of the wood.  No top coat.  The grain should be completely filled, and the surface smooth, but no oil outside.  When you touch the stock, you're touching wood, so it doesn't matter if the oil is soft.

Varnishes are different.  They make a harder finish, and lay on the surface of the wood, which should be filled with oil or shellac or whatever.

 ;)


When I see old guns, I see what seem to me to be of three basic types of finish.  One is linseed oil.  The stocks are darker, the end grain is darker, you can just tell it is an oil finish (or at least, at some time, it was given an oil finish).  The second type of finish is spirit varnish, which I don't know if I've ever actually seen in person...  My thought is that when you run across a gun that has no apparent finish on it whatsoever, it was probably finished with shellac or other spirit varnish, and it has all cracked and simply fallen off (???).  The other type of finish is having the grain filled with shellac or similar and then what is probably only one or two thin applications of an oil varnish rubbed on top.  No heavy buildup, no sanding between coats (which would destroy carving, high spots, and sharp corners).   The color of the wood remains clear and bright and light (not darkened with oil), and the oil varnish on top is usually blackened where it remains and is not worn through.   This finish I have yet to master.  I'm still working on it, though.  The trick is to get a varnish of the proper smooth consistency, yet will still dry in a reasonable amount of time.  Rub it on lightly, let it level itself, and let it sit.... yeah, sounds simple, but it's not that easy...  I'm getting better at it, though.

I did this one a few years ago, and didn't do too bad with it, the stars were all aligned, or something, but it came out better than my attempts at surface varnish usually do (and I remember it still fought me every step of the way).  The grain is filled with shellac/seedlac and an oil varnish is rubbed on top, only a few thin coats.  I do NOT remember what I used for the oil varnish, I don't think it was one I made, as I was having difficulty at the time getting my varnish to turn out right.  I still don't like the effect it had on the carving, very hard to keep it from gumming everything up real bad.


« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 02:42:10 AM by Stophel »
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2015, 08:07:41 PM »
Maybe Taylor will chime in and tell us what oil he used for the Ebony. Would not be hard to fill.



This open grained walnut was more difficult to fill.


« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 08:08:41 PM by Daryl »
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Offline Duane Harshaw

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2015, 12:23:51 AM »
 I have always had good luck with equal amounts of BLO,spar varnish and turp,and I think that I have read on this forum that the BLO at art supply store the kind used for oil painting works well ..d..
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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2015, 05:30:48 AM »
Regarding shellac as a sealer under an oil finish.

Such an approach was identified on a mid-1800s half stock out of Hagerstown, MD.

Straight boiled linseed oil finishes will protect the wood stock against liquid water such as rain.  But offers little protection against moisture getting through the finish and into the wood in the form of moisture in the air.  Moisture we commonly refer to as humidity.

Lac starts to show up in Europe late in the 1600s.  By the 1700's the Europeans had worked it up into a "spirit" finish with grain alcohol as the solvent.  This had never been done in India where the lac came from.  In India they formed it into sticks and used it only on turnery.

If you make up a very dilute solution of lac in grain alcohol and swab it onto the wood it will penetrate quickly and dry quickly.  But you don't want it to form a hard film on the surface of the wood.  Then you can go over that with the boiled oil or boiled oil based varnish finish.

The lac is not a "resin" as would be normally described as a resin obtained from conifer trees or shrubs.  Or fossilized conifer resins.  With the lac (shellac) into the pores of the wood it forms a semi-permeable barrier to moisture being passed between the oil finish and the wood.
When the dried shellac (lac) is subjected to water, as a liquid or vapor (humidity) it will start to swell.  As it swells it will not pass more moisture to the wood on which it is applied.  But shellac as a finish itself cannot take liquid water, such as rain, directly onto it.  It will turn white, swell and fall off the surface of the wood.
So the two finishes complement each other in their protection of the wood from rapid day to day changes in relative humidity and wood moisture content.  The top oil finish protects the shellac while the shellac controls the rate at which the moisture content of the wood will change.  Reducing stresses in the wood that lead to splitting or cracking.

Bill K.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2015, 02:53:54 PM »
Regarding shellac as a sealer under an oil finish.

Such an approach was identified on a mid-1800s half stock out of Hagerstown, MD.

Straight boiled linseed oil finishes will protect the wood stock against liquid water such as rain.  But offers little protection against moisture getting through the finish and into the wood in the form of moisture in the air.  Moisture we commonly refer to as humidity.

Lac starts to show up in Europe late in the 1600s.  By the 1700's the Europeans had worked it up into a "spirit" finish with grain alcohol as the solvent.  This had never been done in India where the lac came from.  In India they formed it into sticks and used it only on turnery.

If you make up a very dilute solution of lac in grain alcohol and swab it onto the wood it will penetrate quickly and dry quickly.  But you don't want it to form a hard film on the surface of the wood.  Then you can go over that with the boiled oil or boiled oil based varnish finish.

The lac is not a "resin" as would be normally described as a resin obtained from conifer trees or shrubs.  Or fossilized conifer resins.  With the lac (shellac) into the pores of the wood it forms a semi-permeable barrier to moisture being passed between the oil finish and the wood.
When the dried shellac (lac) is subjected to water, as a liquid or vapor (humidity) it will start to swell.  As it swells it will not pass more moisture to the wood on which it is applied.  But shellac as a finish itself cannot take liquid water, such as rain, directly onto it.  It will turn white, swell and fall off the surface of the wood.
So the two finishes complement each other in their protection of the wood from rapid day to day changes in relative humidity and wood moisture content.  The top oil finish protects the shellac while the shellac controls the rate at which the moisture content of the wood will change.  Reducing stresses in the wood that lead to splitting or cracking.

Bill K.

Been working great for me so far..... and if you use one of the natural colored dewaxed shellac flakes it can add some base color.. Garnet is nice red
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Offline frogwalking

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2015, 03:54:40 PM »
I have an unopened bottle of "Original Formula Antique Oil Finish" from TOW that I ordered sometime in the not too distant past.  I was thinking of using it over a Permalyn seal.  What do you think of that?   
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2015, 05:32:18 PM »
Quote
I have an unopened bottle of "Original Formula Antique Oil Finish" from TOW that I ordered sometime in the not too distant past.  I was thinking of using it over a Permalyn seal.  What do you think of that?
I doubt it will soak into the wood. I have used Permalyn sealer as a final finish and it seals the wood. I seriously doubt it will do anything but sit right on top of the Permalyn. Others might have experience but I wouldn't try it until I hear from someone that has tried it.

I wouldn't doubt that you could use the oil finish first then use Permalyn sealer as a final coat but not sure what you would gain.

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2015, 05:53:53 PM »
What's the point ?   Once you start with permalyn,  I'd just stick with that.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2015, 08:19:17 PM »
What's the point ?   Once you start with permalyn,  I'd just stick with that.

Bob is right in this.  You must watch what finishes you want to mix.

You can put a "soft" finish over a hard finish but you don't want to put a hard finish over a soft finish.  The hard over the soft invites stress cracking as their reaction to wood dimension changes are not the same.

The other point is the adhesion of the top coat to the bottom coat.  The finishes based on a polyurethane do not allow or promote adhesion of a top coat once they are cured.  Run into this with polyurethane floor finishes.  Once cured nothing wants to adhere to the cured polyurethane.  With polyurethane floor varnish you have, at the most, 24 hours to apply a second top coat.  If the base coat is fully cured you can literally lift the top coat off once it cures.

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Offline Mad Monk

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2015, 08:43:58 PM »
There are a lot of points being made in this thread that could do with more detailed explanations that would give the reader a better understanding of what is involved.  Some of us are strictly traditional while others are not.  The approach you take depends upon what results you want.

My 37 years in industry was almost entirely in the field of industrial coatings.  From operating the production machinery to lab work in QC, R&D, Customer Service, etc.  There are some on the board who I have dealt with for 30 years on this subject.  Before I would launch into any detailed explanations the question would be if there is any interest in more detailed material that would take a number of extensive postings.

Bill K.

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 07:51:41 AM »
I'm familiar with the use of hemp oil in finishing furniture.  Is it ever used on gunstocks?

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 03:00:47 PM »
I'm most interested  in the traditional finishes and methods used on the original rifles of the 18th C
Articles on the subject by Eric Kettenburg, and posts here by Dan Phariss have been extremely helpful.
Additional input would be most appreciated.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Good oil finish?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 04:33:28 PM »
I see linspeed. Linseed oil makes for a great looking finish but takes forever, especially on a customers rifle stock.

Does linspeed really build up faster and take a lot less time?

I also see Chambers oil stock finish.

I'd like to slowly move from truoil as it leaves a plastic feel as it builds up thicker as the coats go on. Great for a gloss finish but the rifles I have coming in, I want a natural feel to them like linseed oil, but without all the months of rubbing them down.

Suggestions?

Try Chambers. A friend of mine likes it. Tru oil is simply a cheap varnish (I am told) that is allowed to thicken and drys FAR too fast. You can moderate this somewhat by mixing it about 50-50 with lumberyard boiled linseed oil and it helps it quite a bit.

Dan
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