Transfering engraving photos, the results are in,

[Scota4570]

What is the easiest way to do it.  I have photos of original engraving.  I can resize them on the computer and create mirror images.  I have an ink jet printer and copiers, color and B/W.  Copier paper and transparencies.  Lots of solvents and wood finishing preperations and japan white. I read about transfering copier images to metal on engraving forums.  I tried to transfer inkjet images using lacquer and alcohol witout succes today.  I was thinking about just sticking the paper image  to the metal and engraving right throught the paper.   Any better ideas?  

Thanks

[David Rase]

Scota4570,
If you have not checked out the link I have included from Tom Dawson, give it a try.  Scroll down until you get to the transfer magic.  I have been using this method for several years with very good results.  I bought both the clear and white 2oz sampler bottles but use the clear pretty much exclusively.  The trick is finding the right ink jet transparency paper and ink.  I know for a fact because I wrote HP that they have the correct pigmented ink so that is the easy part, if your printer is an HP.  Epson used to make the transparency paper but no longer does.  I think John Shippers was selling individual sheets of a transparency paper.  I was able to locate a new package of Epson paper on e bay a couple of years.     

http://www.twdesignshone.com/

[Mark Elliott]

I draw my carving and engraving designs myself.   After all,  it is supposed to be your work, not a copy of somebody else's.  Also,  engraving designs need to be drawn with a sharp, hard pencil so that they are not overly wide.   The lines really shouldn't be much wider than the graver tip.

[jerrywh]

You can use tom whites transfer fluid or you can get some shellac at the hardware store or art supply and thin it with pure alcohol to about 25%. Tom whites work better.  Just any old transparency film will not work. Some will some won't. If you can get some Epson or pictorio transfer fluid it works well. You need a ink jet printer.
The only two that I know for sure will work is an HP or an older Epson. Only authentic HP ink works for me but the Epson works also. Set the printer for black ink only. I use transparencies for transfer on a regular basis and I do my own art work usually. Except for some antique patterns that are not copyrighted. Let the transfer fluid dry for a few minutes. My transfer prints will last for years and still transfer. Pictorio can be bought on Ebay.

[Captchee]

   Sometimes  I find it nice to draw my designs large , then shrink them down .
 Thus I transfer .
 Finding Epson film around here was like finding an honest person in  government .
 Not only was it near impossible , but if you found some , the cost would clean out your wallet .
 What I use is parchment paper  found in the baking isle  of the grocery store
 A Small bottle of  Demur varnish .
  I mirror the design and then print it . I then cut a piece of parchment  that’s  alittle bigger then the design and tape it over  the design . that’s placed back in the feed tray  and print the design again .
 I then take the item im going to engrave and coat the intended area , using a  yellow  sharpie. For me , this cuts down on the glair  and gives a  flat colored background to work against . In about a minute that’s dry .
I then take the transfer and position it , then tape down one side so that I can fold the transfer back . Make an alignment mark on the other end opposite the tape  with a pencil” yes the sharpie will let you draw  on the item as well .
 Fold the transfer back .
  I then lightly  dip my finger in the varnish .  IE  act like you checking wet paint .
 I then wipe the varnish  over the area I just coated with yellow marker . You just want a light film  that’s not going to take more then a minute  or two to tack up .
 Keep any eye on it and every few seconds test an area . Right when the varnish flashes to the point it still feel tacky , but does not really want to leave a finger print .
 Fold the transfer back into position . Check your alignment. Use a small piece of take to hold it in place .
 Now burnish .   I often just grab that same sharpie   and use  the outside to rub down the transfer .  You  should not have to rub hard and you  will see the transfer coming off the other side of the parchment .
 It may take a couple tries  to learn the point where the varnish has dried . But once you do you will get a transfer that  just as nice as what you printed out  .

[flatsguide]

Jerry's method works. Pictorico clear film,& TW's transfer magic. It seems HP ink jets work best. Print out pattern to be transferred and print it on regular paper then tape a small cut section of pictorico film and tape it over the printed image, sticky side up and load that same paper agin the way it came out of the printer the first time. Lay the sticky side onto the prepared surface and with a highly polished burnisher, burnish it down. I find that a lot of pressure on the burnisher works best. Blow TW's transfer magic dry with your breath.
Let us know what method you try and how it works.
Thx Richard

[jerrywh]

 One more tip. Keep the transparency film sealed in the original packing. The textured side seem to dry out or change if exposed to the atmosphere after some time. I use to use HP transparency film but a lot of it that you purchase is old and will not work. Also keep your fingers off of the print side. If you get fingerprints on it that portion won't transfer well.
I guess  I need to downsize that logo

[Scota4570]

Thanks all.

I have about 75 sheets of this,  is it useful ?

http://www.amazon.com/3M-PP2500-Plain-Copier-Transparency/dp/B00004TS5I

[jerrywh]

 Scott I never tried that type. All you can do is try it. 

[T*O*F]

Tom White now sells transfer film to go with his goop.  I bought some but haven't tried it yet.  It works with a HP 1000 printer that costs about $20 from Walmart.

I also have some 30 year old overhead projector film for a copy machine that worked real good with my old Lexmark printer.  Since it's toner based, it might work well with laser printer.  I tried it in my copy machine but couldn't turn the fuser off so it baked the toner on permanently.

[JTR]

Thanks all.

I have about 75 sheets of this,  is it useful ?

http://www.amazon.com/3M-PP2500-Plain-Copier-Transparency/dp/B00004TS5I

I'm using 3M Multi-purpose Transparency Film, CG6000, and an HP printer with 564 ink, and it works. Maybe the stuff you have will work as well.
John

[Acer Saccharum]

I draw my own designs, but I find the computer is really really useful for scaling and reversing images and text.

[kutter]

This is one way to do it,,though there are other ways to transfer a printer copy:

Working in B&W and on an InkJet printer..
I've never been picky about the paper or the type of inkjet cart. I'm not a techy, so whatever I have,,I use.


First make a large copy of the image you are going to be engraving,,this one is for 'looking at' while working.
Set that aside.

Then flip that image on your computers photoshop software so it's a 'reverse' or mirror image. This is the one you will be laying face down and transfering so you want it to be a mirror image of the original.

Next size the mirror image to fit whatever space you need it to fit into on your work.
This takes me some experimentation with dimensions (again, no tech here), and I use a circle or oval template to estimate wether the figure will fit into the area I need it too go.

Another thing to keep in mind is when the figure gets very small, try to keep it as uncluttered and simple as possible.

Adjust the light/dark,,tones, ect on the computers photoshop to get the image as dark as possible with the background as white as possible. You want to transfer a black line drawing of the image,,thats it.

When the image is the correct size according to your template or measurements, it looks nice and crisp,,light and dark,,,,print out 3 or 4 copys.

Leave the computer set up still,,you may need more copys if you mess up the next step!

Take a copy and cut it out of the full sheet of paper so it's down to a small managable size.
Place small pencil dot or hash marks on the back or even folds to the paper that bend around the edges of the metal part being engraved so you can easily allaign the paper pattern onto the metal in the exact location you need it.
 Remember you will be placing it face (pattern) down onto the metal, so you won't be able to see the pattern now.

Once you have it allaigned,,now for the transfer. For this you use acetone.

A Q-Tip dampened w/acetone is your transfer tool.

Wet the Q-Tip,,shake off the excess and then wave it around a couple of times and you're set to go.
Wipe over the metal surface quickly with the Tip to clean it first of any fingerprints or oil.
Then immedietly:
With the pattern held tight against the metal with one hand/fingers,,quickly swipe over the paper with the Q-Tip. It'll dampen the paper instantly.
What happens is that the inkjet printing ink compound is loosened from the paper and is transfered to the metal.

It takes some practice to get a nice clean transfer. I usually swipe the Q-Tip back and forth a couple times and then lightly rub the paper with my forefinger. Then remove the paper pattern.
Too much acetone or too little will result in a poor transfer. A pattern that is blotchy in appearance is usually too much acetone but it could also be a transfer that has too much inkjet 'ink' on the pattern. That comes from a very complicated figure being reduced in size too far sometimes.

Experiment,,go back and make additional copies and try again.

Once a nice clean transfer is on the metal, it takes well to handling. It will not smudge or swipe right off as you are working like a simple pencil line will.
Remove a bad transfer or any remnant of one when you are done with the acetone Q-Tip again.
Take the normal precautions with acetone. Though you are not using a lot of the stuff, none of it is much good for you.

Color originals can be used to make simple B&W copys and work fine.

Keep copyright laws in mind when lifting images of others work. You don't want to become the focus of a lawsuit. Respect other artists work and efforts.
There are books (soft cover and hard cover) full of non-copyrighted images that can be used.  I make full use of these!
Your own photos can be scanned , cropped and used. Remember you are just needing a simple B&W line drawing in most cases.
Hope this helps.

[Mark Elliott]

kutter,

I thought that post was so good that I saved a copy in my gun making notes on my computer, with credit of course.

[Scota4570]

That is great.  Just plain old acetone and clean metal.  That is simple enough for even me. 

Thank you!

[VP]

Scota4570,

One method I have used and is fairly simple is to use Avery clear labels, available from Amazon, that is used on wedding invitations, etc. You can purchase these in various size, up to a full sheet. I size the engraving on the computer, save it as a JPEG, place it on a  label. You can then pull the label off the sheet and accurately place it on your brass for engraving. I find that taking a razor knife and scoring a fine line through the label onto the brass gives me something to follow. If the design isn't to complicated you can actually engrave right thru the label. I will caution you that whatever mistake the original engraver made you will duplicate it it.

VP

[techdiver7]

    I've tried engraving through the transparency film you can buy after running it through a copier. It doesn't work very well. I've had very good success transferring patterns on regular paper run through the office copier and then using acetone.

[JTR]

Kutter, That's certainly a good way to do it, but in my experience seems to be very dependent on the printer ink. My old HP printer worked fine transferring like that with acetone, but then the printer gave up the ghost. The HP printer I have now doesn't work at all with acetone. Go figure.
John

[jerrywh]

Kutter's method works very well and is well known among professional engravers.  The transparency method has advantages in some cases such as working with over laid or inlaid gold relief. Most of you don't get into that sort of Engraving. Transparencies are also good for copying parts such as making a left hand hammer from a right hand hammer or to make sure that a design is perfectly concentric. You can flip the print over and by laying it on top of a design you can tell exactly where it is off. Transparencies are expensive but irrelevant  if the job pays enough. Like Kutter said I usually print out about a dozen or more copies and in different sizes. If I were doing longrifles alone I would just draw on the metal. If you wipe a very light coat of oil on the metal you can draw pretty well on it with a .3mm pencil. Engravers of old used the acetate transfer method. Or transfer wax. And sized there drawings by the graph method and sized there drawings by use of the graph  method.

[kutter]

Kutter, That's certainly a good way to do it, but in my experience seems to be very dependent on the printer ink. My old HP printer worked fine transferring like that with acetone, but then the printer gave up the ghost. The HP printer I have now doesn't work at all with acetone. Go figure.
John

It won't work w/a Laserjet printer,,only the InkJet printer.   
I don't know why, but it won't,,(maybe that's the problem?)
I have both. I've kept an InkJet over the years so I can use it for transfers.

[Captchee]

 it doesn’t work with laser jet Kutter because the actual process of printing and the type of ink are different . Thus some inks just wont  soften enough to  transfer or it bonds  to the  paper or film  to the point it cant  . So one must find a method which works with their printer OR get a printer to match the process one wishes to use .
 I have an old Brother toner printer that works very well . However the DPI is only around 600 , thus the details can often be a challenge .

 This is one of the reasons I went to the parchment. While  most certainly the paper isn’t clear , you can still see not only the  design but the item through it .
  While the ink does dry  on the paper  and thus you can print multiples without worry of smudging the adjoining printings , it does not bond with the parchment.
As you burnish  you can actually tell where  the image has transferred   or has not since the color on the backside of the paper , in the area of the image has released  becomes much lighter .
.
 In the end , there are many different ways to transfer . No mater how one does it , the end result that one needs is a clean transfer .

 go to small Jerry and you cant read it .  maybe a tad smaller , but looks good to me

[kutter]

I figured being different was the reason one worked and the other didn't.

I used to make the prints at 600 dpi on the old photoshop and they came out fine. Now with the latest version the best I get is 200 but I still use them w/complete success.

I'm sure there is a way of fixing all that.  But I may as well be sitting in front of the controls of the Lunar Landing Module when trying to figure this stuff out.
I get by though. With an animal/person figure,,As long as I can get a basic outline w/a few muscle features and such, I can fill in the rest from there.
Everything else I just draw out freehand w/a pencil right onto the metal. I rarely if ever draw things out on paper first. I can wipe a pattern I don't like off the metal just as well as redrawing one on paper.
 
Once cut  in the metal (and if I want to save what I cut) I take a burnished cardboard pull of it and save that. I can reproduce the figure, scroll, ect  then as many times as I want from that quickly with a charcoal pencil and wax.
Add a piece of scotchtape to the mix if a mirror image is needed, though mirror images by this method are not nearly as clear as the copier method first discussed. They do work for me though.
These 'card' pulls last forever if handled somewhere near gently. I've got some of mine from 40yrs ago yet and older ones from engravers past. Some from Bill McGraw (Ithaca) that are probably from the 30's or 40's at least and still reproduce the pattern perfectly.

Lots of different ways & variations. Don't feel stuck because one doesn't work for you. Try other methods to get you through.

[JTR]

Kutter, That's certainly a good way to do it, but in my experience seems to be very dependent on the printer ink. My old HP printer worked fine transferring like that with acetone, but then the printer gave up the ghost. The HP printer I have now doesn't work at all with acetone. Go figure.
John

I guess I should have mentioned that both printers are ink jet. But they use different numbered ink, so not all ink jet ink will work. I started using Tom White transfer magic and everything works fine again.
John

[Scota4570]

I found that using the engravers white with baker's parchment paper worked fair.  Acetone, alcohol and lacquer thinner would not budge the ink on regular paper.  My printer is a HP deskjet 990 cxi.  

My first try with my new Lindsay Airgraver came out like this:

http://s1382.photobucket.com/user/scota45701/media/fed0001_zpsd9nj34ue.jpg.html#/user/scota45701/media/fed0001_zpstmjjayxp.jpg.html?&_suid=1427605334438018218042985061977

Yes, it is all cockeyed.  So was the original.  I may do another but straighten it out.  

I think I need a better ball/vice.  Any comment on the ones you can get on EBAY for around $225?  I made mine out of a salad bowl with 40# of lead, in a wood ring, in a lazy susan.  It has a small drill press vice to hold the work.  I can not spin it easily enough for tight turns.  

Glasses......I ended up with two pairs of 1.75 diopter reading glasses one on top of the other.  Something better is needed.  Maybe some very high power reading glasses?  I'd like to look over the top of them to refrence the large picture of what I am working on.  

[percman48]

Scott:  Kutter is partially correct.  but there are several methods of transferring drawings etc.  I have used the acetone and toner method.  It is poor, at best.  John Schippers demonstrated the Tom White Transfer Magic method in a class that I attended several years ago.  The results were remarkable!!!  Tom's transfer fluid comes in a 4 oz bottle.  It is available in either clear or white tint.  The white is used to engrave on metal that has been rust browned or blued.  Use a "Q" tip to moisten the area where you will be placing your engraving image.  Blow dry the area.  Then place the transfer image in the area where it will fit.   

OK, let me talk about the transfer.  Epson used to make a transparency film that would work.  It is in short supply.  Tom White may still have some stock for sale.  I am using a similar transparency that is manufactured by a company called Pictorico.  It should be available on-line.  I was paying about .20 cents per sheet in packages of 20.  (www.pictorico.com)  The package has a blue and green emerald on the cover.  The film looks frosty.  It has a film on one side and is smooth on the other.  What you will be doing is to make a copy of your engraving image, onto the film side of the transparency.  You will need to make a reverse image though.  When you lay the transparency, film side down onto your metal area, you can see through it to position it correctly.  Tape one or 2 sides down with scotch tape along the edges.  Then burnish the transparency with a metal spoon or something that has curvature to it.  What you will be doing is to force some of the ink from the film side of your transparency, onto the area where you spread the transfer fluid.  I have found that I can transfer the images more than one time.  This is helpful, if you smudge your image before it is completed.  To prevent smudging the image, you can spray a light film of hair spray or clear lacquer over the image.  I will usually cut the main lines first, then go the shading.  When you buff the area, you will lose any remaining image.  Just spread another light coating of the transfer fluid and re-use the first transfer. 

OK, let me talk about the ink in your copier.  There are 2 types that are on the market right now.  You want the "color fast" ink.  It transfers best.  I have several copiers that I use in my home/office/business.  I already had one that was suitable.  Color printers are loss-leaders at the office supply stores.  If you don't have one, or don't have access to one, they are only about $100. 
Before I make a copy onto my transparency, I always make a paper copy to make sure that  have everything correct.  Then I will copy onto a clear, cheap transparency film.  That allows me to flip in over and make another copy that will be a reverse image of what I really want to engrave.  This works for placing drawings onto my powder horns too.  You don't need to use any transfer fluid here though.  The horn surface is pours enough that the ink will stick easily. 
OK, some of the folks above have addressed the need for making their own drawings.  That is fine but how many times have we all copied a particular firearm that we appreciated.  Isn't that what we do?  You can make an exact copy of a stock carving or a Tansel horn, including the scrimshaw art.  Speaking of art, I am not an artist.  I can't make an exact copy of someone's engraving, even if I make a good transfer.  It just isn't the same, although it can be close at times.  John Schippers teaches his students to make an exact copy of the item to be engraved.  Let's say that you are working on a side plate.  Then enlarge the image to 200 percent.  Now you have a canvas to work from.  Use that sharp pencil that was recommended.  After your are satisfied with your drawing, reduce it back by 100 percent.  Then go ahead and make your transfer.  When I make my transfers, I usually fill the sheet with other stuff - even simple stuff like my name that will be engraved on my barrel.  Do you have a particular computer font that you like?  I use Edwardian Script. Give that a try too. 

After learning about this transfer method, I did some experimenting on my own.  After I was satisfied with the results, I demonstrated it to some of the members of the Washington Historical Gunmakers Guild (of which I am actively involved).  Some were amazed at the quality of the image that was left behind.  The only way to get better at your craft is to practice.  I am not into designing my own carvings or engravings but I have copied many of them and put them onto practice plates.  Yes, my engraving has improved but it has a long way to go, to reach the quality of the masters.  Good luck with your project.  Home my 2 cents worth of experience has helped.