Twist for a 50cal?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Alright guys, I just got in a VERY early CVA Mountain Rifle with the Douglas barrel and its the earliest model made with the hexagon ramrod thimbles.

Its a 32" .50cal barrel but shows a good deal of wear and pitting. I want to send it off to be bored/lined. I plan on going back with the original .50cal bore, but am wondering... 1:66 or 1:72 twist?

[Daryl]

What is the 'thickness' of the barrel?
What is the diameter of the liner you are planning on soldering or epoxying into that octagonal barrel?
What sort of charges are you planning on putting through this liner?
The strength of the barrel is only the diameter of the liner.
Will it be safe - for what load level?
66", or even 48" for that matter, will give you all the twist needed for an accurate load. The faster the twist, the lighter you should be able to load it and still get decent accuracy, at least to 50yards.
What not put a new barrel on the gun as it will probably cheaper in the long run, than buying the liner and installing it or having that done.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

because its a Douglas and finding a new one is pretty much impossible. This one was a maple stock just stacked with curls.

I plan on having Hoyt do the liner. I dont think anyone here would question his work.

Guess I will go back with the 1:66 twist the current bore has.

[smokinbuck]

I have to go along with Daryl on this one. It may be a Douglas now but once it is cut and either lined or re rifled it's a barrel by whoever does the work.  If you sell it later and say it has a Douglas barrel, that's wrong. With a .50 cal barrel I would go with either a 1-48 or 1-56.
Mark

[Hungry Horse]

 The old CVA mountain rifles were 1-66" twist, and shot very well. The locks were junk. The internal parts were all different degrees of hardness, and wore an different rates. I had the most problems with the bridle, and lockplate. These parts would wear, and bind, and slow down the hammer fall until it wouldn't bust a cap any longer. I bushed both of these parts, and finally wore the barrel out and traded it for a chainsaw. There probably is still an old beat up mountain rifle out there somewhere, with "Hungry Horse" engraved on the capbox.
 In my opinion a used, beat up, CVA Mountain rifle, is twice the gun the CVA Hawken ever was. And it doesn't stick out like a coyote in a chicken pen in a photograph taken in a primitive camp. JMO.

                     Hungry Horse

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

you're forgetting, I build up the cva hawken rifles as well, and i'll put mine up against anything out there as far as quality and accuracy goes.

I'll go back with a 1:66 twist on this one. Keep it as it came from the day it was made.

I was tempted to go with a .54cal but, I kinda like to romance of restoring her to what she was. Its actually still in kit form and someone threw on some shiny stuff. Thats ok, its protects the wood for now LOL.

Now i have to learn how to use that aqua fortis on the maple?

[bgf]

Difference b/t 1:72 and 1:66 is negligible!  1:66 is slow enough, almost too slow in my opinion.  If liner is tightly fit, I don't see it being any less safe than the original barrel, and in the case of the old Douglas maybe safer...

[hanshi]

Just saying what I'd do if it were mine.  I'd have it "freshened" out to take a .500" ball.  It would still be a .50, just oversize.

[WadePatton]

Just saying what I'd do if it were mine.  I'd have it "freshened" out to take a .500" ball.  It would still be a .50, just oversize.

Now that makes sense.  

My general rule on twist rates is to let the bbl makers worry about it.  They are in the best position to know what works best for most PRB shooters of any caliber.  It is their profession.  

(It's another one of those things I chose to "let go" with the cart. guns and all the study/debate/experimentation I did back then.)

[WadePatton]

you're forgetting, I build up the cva hawken rifles as well, and i'll put mine up against anything out there as far as quality and accuracy goes...

No one has forgotten.  You've posted nothing but CVA this and that, expressing no discernible interest in our American Longrifle.

Now up against anything-out where?  Surely you refer to whatever it is they sell for production guns these days?

To be clear, they (CVA) are not "American Longrifles" per our definitions and goals here. I'm sure they are remembered fondly as stepping stones by many, gateway guns even, and tolerated; but as products of modern machinery, methods and painful genericism-most definitely not American Longrifles.  

Now i have to learn how to use that aqua fortis on the maple?

There are 150 threads around here on the subject, maybe 151.  Get crackin' with it.    

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

you want a cookie Wade?

I am asking about a .50cal and what bore twist one would go with if having a liner installed.

I didnt ask to make comments on my rifle or this and that. My question was about a good twist for a 32" barrel in 50cal

Oh and I do shoot a Kentucky, i just prefer my sidelocks right now.

Dont be such a snob, if i hadnt been around on the net as long as i have been, i would have been turned off very much from a site that gets that hot over a simple post about asking what a good twist is for a 50cal. Folks like you kill it for many people getting into muzzleloading. Instead of taking someone under their wing to help, you go and bash them and run them off.

I like my CVA's, so what? It keeps fresh material on the forum and I do my best to help out here and there when someone needs it.

We're a muzzleloading community that enjoys making smoke and keeping somewhat of a traditional alive. If I wanted to hear hens clucking, I'd go down to a barber shop and listen to the ol ladies squeal 

[Daryl]

FM - you opened that can of worms when you said you'd stack your CVA guns against anything in terms of quality - YIKES, that must have hurt when that gold ball hit you?

The quality of gun, which is an assembly of good parts, expertly put together and accuracy of the barrel, are two entirely different things.  A good barrel can be very accurate - yet the gun is anything but quality in regards work done by all of the builders here. 

I proved that many years ago with a TC that I replaced the factory buttoned piece of $#@* barrel with a Les. Bauska cut rifled barrel.  The gun, with it's nasty hogged out, originally a 2x6 board stock and crappy coil spring lock, suddenly became VERY accurate. That accuracy was merely lipstick & sweet that was, however the gun itself was still a pig.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I proved that many years ago with a TC that I replaced the factory buttoned piece of $#@* barrel with a Les. Bauska cut rifled barrel.  The gun, with it's nasty hogged out, originally a 2x6 board stock and crappy coil spring lock, suddenly became VERY accurate. That accuracy was merely lipstick & sweet that was, however the gun itself was still a pig.

I agree, I've had multiple TC's over the years and only one shot worth a darn. They are bored way to tightly and that .003" rifling doesn't cut it.

[smokinbuck]

FM,
With all due respect, you are just not getting what is being said. When you polish a #$@* it is still a #$@*!!!
Mark

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Really? I am very disappointed in you guys. Talk about a total complete lack of respect. I am embarrassed to even be part of this place after seeing responses like this.

Its no wonder the younger generation like myself is going to inline. Its folks that give responses like these, run new guys off because you disrespect them so badly.

My polished #$@* as you put it, will put a $4,000 piece of ART WORK long rifle to shame. Simple fact.

[Hungry Horse]

 Hey, its OK, I dis' the guy down the street, that is trying to corner the market on slightly used Yugo's too.

                    Hungry Horse

[rsells]

I would have Hoyt do the liner with a 1 in 66 twist.  That has been my favorite twist for .50 and .54 cal over the years.  Take care, and hope the project works out.
                                                                                                         Roger Sells

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I would have Hoyt do the liner with a 1 in 66 twist.  That has been my favorite twist for .50 and .54 cal over the years.  Take care, and hope the project works out.
                                                                                                         Roger Sells

Thanks, thats my plan. I did clean the bore and it was just light surface rust and it left behind very light pitting. I may try shooting it later down the road to see how it feels when loading a .020" patch.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Hey, its OK, I dis' the guy down the street, that is trying to corner the market on slightly used Yugo's too.

                    Hungry Horse

Believe it or not, theres a collectors market for yugos. They'll sell for 5-6k these days if they are in really good shape. Why someone would want one, i do not know. My brother had one and in the rain, you'd have to pull over and squeeze the water out of sponge air filter in order for it to run again.

[Daryl]

Light pitting can be slicked up by lead lapping.  Taylor and I did a 42" .40 cal. that had been boiled to clean for too many years. It's bore was lightly pitted from one end to the other.

The second lapping job did the trick and although still pitted it does not harbor as much fouling as it once did.

We used a .35 to .45 cal. coated Dewey 48" cleaning Rod (also made in 36") with ball bearing handle. We made a threaded end for it for casting the lap onto, inside the bore and with lots of elbow grease, oil and valve grinding compound- fine, we got the job done, thus salvaging the barrel.

I have heard of guys firelapping ML barrels, but would need a mallet to drive the grit-laden patch down the bore before shooting it out- again. If the rod against the patched ball was allowed to follow the rifling, the 'scratches' would be longitudinal and would not harm the barrel's shooting at all.

[bgf]

Light pitting can be slicked up by lead lapping.  Taylor and I did a 42" .40 cal. that had been boiled to clean for too many years. It's bore was lightly pitted from one end to the other.

The second lapping job did the trick and although still pitted it does not harbor as much fouling as it once did.

We used a .35 to .45 cal. coated Dewey 48" cleaning Rod (also made in 36") with ball bearing handle. We made a threaded end for it for casting the lap onto, inside the bore and with lots of elbow grease, oil and valve grinding compound- fine, we got the job done, thus salvaging the barrel.

I have heard of guys firelapping ML barrels, but would need a mallet to drive the grit-laden patch down the bore before shooting it out- again. If the rod against the patched ball was allowed to follow the rifling, the 'scratches' would be longitudinal and would not harm the barrel's shooting at all.

Just polishing the lands with compound loaded on a tight patch, stacked leather, or green scrub pad helps a lot.  My theory is it squares off the corners and gets it smooth enough to load a good patch and ball, then shooting will further clean out the grooves.  Light pitting seems to be more of a loading issue than accuracy--seen some pretty rough barrels shoot pretty well, even it the owners needed a range rod and hammer to load second shot!

Lead lapping would be optimal, as you say.

[hanshi]

Accuracy is as accuracy does.  I once owned a Crockett .32 that could hold its own against my .36 SMR.  Good barrels are not that hard to find and sometimes come mounted on atrocious wooden planks.  But!  Life is too short to have to live it shooting with an ugly gun.  "Plain" is simply a corn fed country girl that doesn't need makeup to look pretty; plain is nice.  But ugly!  Well, even makeup can't cover that assembly of warts.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Accuracy is as accuracy does.  I once owned a Crockett .32 that could hold its own against my .36 SMR.  Good barrels are not that hard to find and sometimes come mounted on atrocious wooden planks.  But!  Life is too short to have to live it shooting with an ugly gun.  "Plain" is simply a corn fed country girl that doesn't need makeup to look pretty; plain is nice.  But ugly!  Well, even makeup can't cover that assembly of warts.

Thats why they invented the Light Switch.

[WadePatton]

Really? I am very disappointed in you guys. Talk about a total complete lack of respect. I am embarrassed to even be part of this place after seeing responses like this.

Its no wonder the younger generation like myself is going to inline. Its folks that give responses like these, run new guys off because you disrespect them so badly.

My polished #$@* as you put it, will put a $4,000 piece of ART WORK long rifle to shame. Simple fact.

Being brief: Respect has nothing to do with it.  Please review the ALR Mission Statement.

We are here for the further development of the knowledge and skills of those INTERESTED in the American Longrifle.   

We are not All Things Muzzleloading. 

You have expressed no such interest in any posting at this forum at any time.  If you are INDEED interested in learning more about the American Longrifle or sharing what you do know about them, then please share that interest with us.  We shall be happy to assist in that endeavor. 

It's not about your gun, it's about a community of like-mindedness, and that LIKE begins with some interest in the American Longrifle and History of that era. 

Thank you.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

read my first post PERIOD. I asked about a rifling twist.