Twist for a 50cal?

[WadePatton]

read my first post PERIOD. I asked about a rifling twist.

I have read all of your 128 posts.  Nothing in them changes my previous message.

I would not have made such statements as to your interests had I not reviewed all of your posts-more than once.  No man is a "single post".  

Please let us know if you ever decide to investigate the American Longrifle.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I deleted my other used name as Frontier Gander, I didnt realize the admin could change my name. Already discussed this with the admin so now you want to pick on me because of my post count?  

Ive been muzzleloading since i was 15 years old, I got started with an 1851 confederate navy pistol which was a total #$@*, moved on to a couple other  muzzleloaders and have enjoyed the smoke since then. I've gotten 3 family members involved and thats all we've done for the past 10 years together. This year my brother and I hope to take our father to northern new mexico and let him go after a muley buck as Colorados draw sucks and it takes to long to draw a tag for a poor deer unit.

What was a factory made kentucky, I later stripped and strained,browned and tuned myself.


Productions always fill a void. I take production and rework them into a great hunting rifle thats does the job and will do the job for years to come. Well over 2000 shots through a 58cal cva hawken I built and worked hard at learning what to do and the best way to get it to shoot. Basically LEARN what IT wants. Same as you do with any other gun or anything else in life.

I seem to get a snotty attitude towards myself for sticking with "production" made muzzleloaders?  Well, if they are so bad like others claim, I must be doing something right while you had a hard time with a production made rifle?

My first flintlock my brother bought me in 2006. A traditions kentucky... oh I know, horrible locks! ugh! that 2 piece stock just makes me want to hike up my skirt and just march off in a hurry! Looks nothing like the rifles of the old.

Yeah well, in the first 6 months I had it, I practiced and practiced, got my stuff down and did this on the 3rd day of my first ever flintlock hunt with a 40 yard shot to the head on a bedded buck.
[/URL][/img]


One thing that did take me YEARS to learn... French Amber flint is a lot better than black english in my traditions!

[smokinbuck]

I don't think anyone is questioning your prowess with whatever it is you are shooting, except maybe a bedded deer, but more the fact that you are not hearing, or understanding, what you are being told. Some of us may have gotten away from your original post but it was after you went out of bounds. All we are doing is trying to follow the original intent of the site.
Mark

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

One must defend themselves, especially when you have nit pickers that stoop low enough to comment on how many post one has.

I asked a simple question and others steered it in the wrong direction. You guys may have run off other new guys that came here with questions, but ive been around long enough to have thick skin and do not mind sharing my side of the story.

I got a couple responses as I was hoping for, the other is the typical forum loud mouths, so thank you to those that have helped.

Ive been on here for years and am just shocked at how little class some of the "old timers" have on here lately.

You guys kill a forum when trash like this drags out. I know it, I've left about 6 forums from Sept last year to early march of this year.  I dont care to listen or read arguments over piddly stuff.

you all has heard of K.I.S.S

I have another theory, S.S.T.M.L

Sit down, shut up, talk, muzzle, loaders

EDIT:  I just bought a beautiful .50cal percussion long rifle with a nice curly maple stock! Will post pictures once it arrives. We'll see how custom shoots against my cva.

[Dphariss]

Alright guys, I just got in a VERY early CVA Mountain Rifle with the Douglas barrel and its the earliest model made with the hexagon ramrod thimbles.

Its a 32" .50cal barrel but shows a good deal of wear and pitting. I want to send it off to be bored/lined. I plan on going back with the original .50cal bore, but am wondering... 1:66 or 1:72 twist?

I would see if I could find a Green Mountain barrel of the right dimension and put it on. Much better barrel than a Douglas.
If you think its a collectors item set the barrel back so it can be put back to factory if necessary.

Dan

[bob in the woods]

If you are going to have the barrel bored out and a liner installed, how will this affect the breaching and the drum ?
Something to think about .  As far as twist is concerned, anything from 1/48 to 1/66 is fine.  Any slower would be counter productive IMO.   Since you have an attachment to the "Douglas" barrel,  boring it out , sleeving it ,and changing the twist as well sort of negates any semblance to the original piece. Sort of like changing the woman, but keeping the dress     

[Hungry Horse]

 The first thing I would do with the existing barrel, is to shorten it an inch or two. Most barrel wear is usually muzzle wear, and is only in the last couple of inches of the barrel.
 If the bore seems a little rough, I would fire lap it, using maxi bullets, and fine valve lapping compound. The trick to doing this is to roll the maxi's between a couple of heavy steel plates, with a little lapping compound, until they are reduced in diameter enough to load without a hammer. The routine is fire a shot, using about 80 grns. of powder so the bullet obturates enough to give you barrel contact. The most important part is you fire, clean, fire again, clean again, until the bore feels smoother when cleaning. The last one I did was much better after about eight shots.
 If you didn't want to shorten the barrel you might try coning the muzzle, to eliminate the worn section at the muzzle, by making it more unitorm ( they usually wear off center).

                     Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 The first thing I would do with the existing barrel, is to shorten it an inch or two. Most barrel wear is usually muzzle wear, and is only in the last couple of inches of the barrel.
 If the bore seems a little rough, I would fire lap it, using maxi bullets, and fine valve lapping compound. The trick to doing this is to roll the maxi's between a couple of heavy steel plates, with a little lapping compound, until they are reduced in diameter enough to load without a hammer. The routine is fire a shot, using about 80 grns. of powder so the bullet obturates enough to give you barrel contact. The most important part is you fire, clean, fire again, clean again, until the bore feels smoother when cleaning. The last one I did was much better after about eight shots.
 If you didn't want to shorten the barrel you might try coning the muzzle, to eliminate the worn section at the muzzle, by making it more unitorm ( they usually wear off center).

                     Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 Oh, I understand now, when you actually get a response that has possibly usable information, you ignore it. It all about stirring up the hornets nests, and kicking the cow pies. I'm not playing this game anymore, and neither should the rest of the good people that frequent this forum. Enjoy shooting your Yugo Hawken.

                Hungry Horse

[Topknot]

I have you figured out too. Hungry Horse is right about you as well as Wade and others. It just took me longer to get wise to your game. Your not interested at all about learning to build or the history of our deeply cherished American Longrifle. I now think just like all the rest of dedicated members here. You just want to cause alot of trouble here. Please find another site to post on.....Please. Like wade said, you dont fit in with our philosophy on this site.
 I was blind but now I see!

                                                                                   topknot
                                                                               

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I asked a question about rifling twist for a .50cal whats so hard about that?

Ive been on here for 4+ years before I deleted my user name to make a new one LOL.

The only trouble ive seen is others starting trouble towards me.

I already got my answer and thanked those earlier that answered my question.

[WadePatton]

I asked a question about rifling twist for a .50cal whats so hard about that?

Ive been on here for 4+ years ...

The fact that you asked the question shows that you have no respect for the opinions already written on the subject of twist rate here, and in the archives.  

It shows that you didn't do any research here, or in the archives to see that all manners of twists and the trade-offs involved have been thoroughly discussed.  

It also reflects that you've probably not taken heed of the standard twists offered by the great bbl makers of today, and that they themselves have really good answers for what rate twist any caliber will need for PRB shooting.

The most salient points derived from the discussion should be that relining a Douglas bbl that has zero historic or sentimental value is probably a spendish idea, and completely removes the "Douglasness" of said bbl (for whatever that is worth?).   A new bbl from a good current maker would be about the same price*.

That actually trying to repair the bbl you have would be the first option a competent gunbuilder would pursue.

Of course if it is perchlorate powder damage, it may be total junk anyway.  But giving it a serious lapping is the first trick.  

Rate of twist, meh there are no magical rates, only trade-offs.  Learn the trade-offs and your rate questions are all answered.  Or just trust the wise men who make bbls for us today.

*But that very few of us here would take a nice new bbl and drop it into an ugly plank and hang a junk lock on the side.  We would buy a good lock and a decent board and try to replicate works with historic underpinnings (no platypus).  That is why we are here, and we are glad to assist you in that endeavor.  


Some excellent concepts on the subject in a previous thread (very NOT LONG ago) from Dan, do note that he is repeating often repeated information:

I believe the concern over twist rates in RB rifles is, except for extreme cases, a tempest in a teapot... But here goes. Again...
It used to be believed, by some not all,  that the ball needed to make one turn in the barrel. This belief resulted in some large bore, short barreled rifles being grossly over twisted. Lots of European  rifles of the mid-18th c had twists in the 26-32" range due to the short barrels often used. Coupled with the larger ball sizes 58 and up this reduced the velocity they could obtain without stripping the patch.
It is likely that the 48" twist that was common for RB rifles of all calibers may have been the result of the "4 ft" barrel common in America from at least the mid-18th c onward.  
That the 4 ft twist is very useful for a wide variety of calibers is self-evident from both historical and modern usage.
If the 58 Minie could be used in a 72" (because its somewhat stabilized by its heavy nose and light skirt) why would a RB care much? I suspect that really good accuracy can be obtained with a 32 cal from 30" or even faster to 72 or slower.  Heavier balls with more rotational inertia need a slower twist to prevent blowing the patch at the point of highest pressure and greatest acceleration. Yet current experience shows that a 66" twist will work with almost any bore size to at least 69 caliber with heavy charges.
When shooting cylindrical bullets or even short conicals twist can be very important. Round ball? It just needs enough spin to make it shoot accurately,  to prevent it "knuckle balling" and slow enough the patch can maintain its integrity. The cloth patched RB also needs rifling in the .008 range or somewhat greater to assure that the patches  can get proper grip but grooves over .012 are just window dressing. It is also necessary that the  patch imprint on the ball at the lands during loading to assure that the two have a good grip on each other. This is easier to do with narrow lands than wide ones.
But in general don't worry about the twist.
If in doubt don't come here to post ASK A BARREL MAKER.... Its a simple concept. Will you find varying answers? Sure. Jim McLemore will not even tell you what his gain is. You take what he makes. I would not question his knowledge.
Jake and Sam Hawken used 48, Bill Large used 56, Douglas used 66, Green Mountain uses 48 for small bores around 60 for mediums and 70 for 50 up. ALL THESE BARRELS WILL OUT SHOOT THE SHOOTER. McLemore's gain will shoot virtually through the same hole with a scope. He tests them all...
Buy the barrel of your choice and find out what it likes.
 
Dan

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

the horse is dead, stop kicking it.

I already got my answers and will make the next move when I am ready to do so.

[WadePatton]

Well, I thought there could be one last glimmer of hope that you'd get it.

You don't.  You see us as a vehicle for increasing the visibility/validity of your commercial name.  Apparently nothing more.  This is sad. 

fin

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

oh lord please do not tell me that the link bothers you. I'll remove it and i can guarantee you, this place hasnt generated any traffic to my place or to my blog as i can actually check and see where my hits are coming from. Search engines like bing and google generate most of the forum and blog hits due to the image results.

[AZshooter]

In amongst the bickering and infighting, there was some usable information.  It was an embarrassment to read all the snobbery contending the General Discussions, and Black Powder Shooting was only geared towards the American Longrifle, to the exclusion of all others.

While a big feelgood to the chorus of likeminded members patting themselves on the back for what they  know, this forum is an enormous deterrent to those who are interested in getting a foot in the door for shooting muzzleloading rifles, American Longrifles, or otherwise. 

Go about your business of sniping at each other.  You're no asset to the upcoming generation of new shooters.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

This is an attempt to defend this web site.  It is specific.  There are lots of places to go to discuss twists,, loads, and such, but as far as I know, very few where one can get advice on historic arms.  I'm happy to keep it that way, and those who don't like it ... bye!

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

at a time like this ALL muzzleloading groups should stick together, not be rude to one another and run new members off. Guests can read the forums i believe. Does not set a good picture when this stuff starts up.

Im over it though. Some guys just need to double up on the bipolar meds 

[JDK]

at a time like this ALL muzzleloading groups should stick together, not be rude to one another and run new members off. Guests can read the forums i believe. Does not set a good picture when this stuff starts up.

Im over it though. Some guys just need to double up on the bipolar meds 

And there it is.  In one breath you appear to lecture on decorum and in the next you cast insults.  You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe anyone here is trying to run anyone off, but this site was established for a reason and has very specific goals.  If one wants to discuss any number of subjects within the confines of the rules, and does so respectfully and conducts themselves appropriately, then they are more than welcome here.  But this is not a "muzzleloading" site, this is a site dedicated to education on the American Longrifle.

There are many sites all over the web on any number of subjects that enforce these same standards.  There is a forum on practically every subject, and if a person can't find one that caters to their interest they can start their own.  Many of us here are members of other forums, probably most of us.

As far as guest reading and not setting a "good picture", the moderators are pretty good about deleting stuff that disparages the forum.  And even it it's left up, it is usually pretty obvious to the reader who the agitators are.  I don't believe it will reflect poorly on the entire forum.

Enjoy, J.D.

[bob in the woods]

Honestly, I do believe that all muzzleloading shooters should as you say "stick together" , however, let's take a closer look at the specifics . I defend all types of muzzleloading firearms in a general way. But the reality of the situation is this;  I have no interest in inlines, or Lyman , CVA , Traditions, etc etc .   If that is what turns your crank, I'm happy for you, but it's not what this site is about. It's not snobbery, or a matter of looking down on these guns. I started with a "Safari Arms "   so called " Hawken "  30 years ago. My main interest now is in the American Longrifle and that is what drew me to this board.   There are other sites that have lots of room for production arms, and muzzleloading in general.  Defending your "right" to all things CVA, and then admonishing us because we're not interested is like insisting on wearing a green jacket when attending a red jacket club meeting    You have a talent for fixing up /reworking these kit guns and that's great. Keep it up. But maybe take a closer look into the nuances of the long rifle. If that's an interest, this is the place to be.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

my question which got hijacked was about a barrel twist for a 50cal. When it gets dragged out like this, its just simply pathetic. Good god people! Whats the world coming to.

[Vomitus]

   The good people on here give you good advise. Then you go ahead and do it your own way anyways. You are wasting these excellent, talented men their good time. ciao!

[WKevinD]

How sad.
So many knowledgeable people offering specific advise to specific questions only to have it turn.
Many of us started with "production" guns but grew into the appreciation of the longrifle. Most of us searched for and found this forum so that we could share and learn from like minded individuals that have grown past trying to guild the pig.   

[Militant_Hillbilly]

Some guys just need to double up on the bipolar meds 

It aint bipolar meds that are needed here, it's just the last ravages of cabin fever. The cure is to get outside, burn some black powder and get a healthy snort of fumes. I got my dose at  the Alvin York match a few days ago.

[E.vonAschwege]

This subject has been discussed thoroughly and has gone far beyond the realm of the original question.  This topic is now locked. 
-Eric