Modifying my first real (sorta) longrifle...

[Bill Ladd]

Just a few months ago, I re-entered the traditional muzzleloading world with a CVA Mountaineer Rifle. Not long after, I found this place.

I've wanted to own, and to build, a real long rifle since I started back shooting. So now I have a roughly precarved NC stock, three barrels, couple locks, some nice Gillespie parts I got from Dennis.  gunmaker is also building me a very fine Squirrel Riffle.

In the meantime I wanted something to replace my CVA starter so I got this off Gun (makin' me) Broker.

An old Dixie Turner Kirkland in .45:





Turns out it's .40 - the vendor is sending me back some dough.  I have .45 cal gear but nothing in .40.  I'm shooting .375 balls with double patches at present.  Hitting what I aim at so far.

Whelp, my first outing with Ole Turner was certainly a disappointment.  I could barley get it to fire at all.  Turns out that Belgian lock is a real piece of doo.

Here's a shot of the lock after couple hours tweaking this past Sunday:



Had no vent at the front of the hammer, so I filed one in there (I promise I can do cleaner work - I was eager to get back out to the woods!!):



I polished the internals, reprofiled the sear and the tumbler (all you had to do was breath on the trigger and it would fire), re-tapped the stripped sear spring hole, replaced the sear spring and roughly polished the plate and hammer. I also had to do a good bit of lock mortise cleanup.  I'm thinking this gun never has been fired from the clean condition of the bore and the fact that, with the lock and mortise (and that horrible nipple that's even too small for #10 caps) as they were, it would barley fire!

Got out to one of my new spots Sunday evening and man, what a world of difference!

Now that it shoots well, It'll be my main gun until Tom is finished or I get my Gillespie facsimile done.

After that, I plan on some stock reprofiling, iron mounting, ditching that capbox for an iron patchbox, a refinish and perhaps a conversion to flint.

Some wood needs to come off here:


Cheek's maybe a little fat:


There's some good pattern hidden under that glossy finish:


For now though, I'm enjoying it!

Oh, do any of y'all know what esoteric thread size that !@*% nipple is?  It matches none of the common standard or metric sizes I have here at the shop.

Thanks!

[Bill Ladd]

Oh yeah.  I posted this all looking for ideas and guidance.  Except for those ones that tell me "It's a cheap gun, don't waste your time."

It's all about the journey.  Thanks.

Bill

[grabenkater]

Bill,

I have custom built muzzleloaders to shoot and I have always wanted to try my hand at building my own. It's just not in the stars right now, so I have to settle for something else. I was recently at a pawnshop and I saw a CVA Hawken setting behind the counter. It had been sitting there for several months gathering dust, so I walked out with it for a song.

I now have it in piles of parts and I have been working on the stock every now and then. I have removed a goodly amount of wood from the forearm, wrist and slimmed down the butt a bit. My plan is to try and grasp the learning curve of doing inlays and reshaping the lock panels, reconfiguring the triggerguard, removing all the modern marks from the barrel, browning the barrel, improving the cap box and a few other things. It is not my plan to make a silk purse from a Spanish sow's ear but to try my hand at something that will not set me back a few months car payment.

If it comes out looking great, then I will be ecstatic......if not, well then my seven year old will have his own muzzleloader to shoot with me at the range.

[Nate McKenzie]

Bill, This is one of the first modern production rifles from one of the pioneers of the reproduction industry. As such it has collector value the way it is. If you mess with reshaping and refinishing the stock and adding a patchbox, you will ruin the collector value and it won't shoot any better. Sounds like you have it shooting well. I'd leave it like it is as a piece of history to be seen, shot, and enjoyed like it is.

[gunmaker]

What Nate said,  Track & Dixie have a series of oversize nipples one mite work for you.  ....Tom

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

brown the metal and refinish the stock, thats all i'd do to it personally. The lock panels look nice and clean, along with the cheek piece.

[Bill Ladd]

Bill, This is one of the first modern production rifles from one of the pioneers of the reproduction industry. As such it has collector value the way it is. If you mess with reshaping and refinishing the stock and adding a patchbox, you will ruin the collector value and it won't shoot any better. Sounds like you have it shooting well. I'd leave it like it is as a piece of history to be seen, shot, and enjoyed like it is.

Yes, I was wondering about that. According to what I have been told, this is one of Dixie's lesser efforts. I will continue to search before I do any cutting.  My local blackpowder gunshop said the gun lists for about $350 in one of his pricing books.

Pause while I check the Google

Thanks Nate.  I keep finding references to this gun being Dixie's first imported non-musket reproduction.

So it doesn't have much retail value, but it definitely has recent historical value.

I appreciate the heads up. That's all I need to know. Soon as I find a good nipple, it's a finished project!

[Bill Ladd]

What Nate said,  Track & Dixie have a series of oversize nipples one mite work for you.  ....Tom

Thanks Tom.  I bet someone has this thread size in a decent nipple.  Next time I'm over at my friends machine shop, I'll find out the actual size. Otherwise I'll go oversize and drill/tap.

[grouchy]

I always wanted one of these when I was a kid, I'd do as Nate said. thanks for sharing! ned

[Mike Brooks]

Oh yeah.  I posted this all looking for ideas and guidance.  Except for those ones that tell me "It's a cheap gun, don't waste your time."

It's all about the journey.  Thanks.

Bill

Well, that's where I was going so I guess I got nothin......

[Topknot]

Hey Bill, looks like you might have yourself a shooter. Keep it the way it is for now. It will probably be worth a pretty penny one of these days being an early turner kirkland piece. Congratulations on your find!

                                                                          topknot

[moleeyes36]

Bill,

One more me too.  Don't muck with it; leave it as it is.  I'm not a fan of "kit" guns; however, if you don't have the experience, workshop set-up, tools, etc. to tackle a scratch build, think about one of those.  A Pecatonica River, Track of the Wolf, Muzzle Loaders Builders Supply, Tip Curtis, Sitting Fox, and some other folks can sell you a "kit".  These are really a components set rather than a "snap together" kit like the old TC, CVA, Pedersoli, Lyman, Traditions, etc.  They give you the opportunity to develop your building skills and if you take your time and do it right, they can produce a very nice looking and performing (not particularly historically correct for the type rifle they claim to be) rifle.  But then you can end up with a nice rifle (far better than anything TC, CVA, or any of the high volume wood butchers ever produced) for a decent price that lets you develop your skills as you move into projects that require higher skills.  Bill, it's like you said, it's all about the journey.  Just my tuppence.

Mole Eyes

[Bill Ladd]

if you don't have the experience, workshop set-up, tools, etc. to tackle a scratch build, think about one of those.

Mole Eyes

Thanks Mole Eyes.

Being a hard-headed lug, I've already gone past the "kit gun" stage.  I've been collecting parts for my first three builds..  Very well equipped shop. Been working with my hands for most of my life (professionally and for fun), so I'll be able to get the parts together at least in the rough appearance of a long rifle.  

Here's some other stuff I built (or halfway built) over the recent years:















Very excited to start my first build.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

NICE!! Some one that can make me a custom spare tire mount for my 73 cj5 jeep!

[Bill Ladd]

I hope I'm not coming off as arrogant. Just trying to get you know y'all and let y'all know a little about me. I know I have very much to learn and I have no illusions - my first effort will be an obvious first effort.  I love coming here and looking at the contemporary masters' work - absolutely stunning.  I know my work will never approach that level, and that's okay.  I do journeyman level work - so I'm confident that eventually I'll knock out some decent-looking barn guns.

And even though I have a nice shop, I have a serious lack of inletting and carving tools.  So.  I get to go tool shopping soon!!  Awesome...

Oh, and to bring this back to building, before I learned that the Turner gun has collector interest, I was thinking it might make a good testbed for developing my skills. That's why I posted it here.

Thanks for letting me run my mouth.

[JDK]

The same attention to detail and craftsmanship that has gone it to those bikes will pay big dividends on your journey in building longrifles.

Nice work you posted there.  Enjoy, J.D.

[Bill Ladd]

Oh yeah.  I posted this all looking for ideas and guidance.  Except for those ones that tell me "It's a cheap gun, don't waste your time."

It's all about the journey.  Thanks.

Bill

Well, that's where I was going so I guess I got nothin......

Mike, I like reading your posts.  You're my kinda curmudgeon!

[Captchee]

Well Bill , let me say , the rifle isn’t worth much .
 There for go for it . Jump right in there .
 Is it worth working on . YES!!!
The only value that maters is the value you place on the piece  or your experience re working it
The reason its worth it is that your going to gain experience , both good and bad .
Heck , completely  restock the parts if you like.

[JDK]

Personally, I agree with Captchee here.  I'm not of the opinion there's historical value to this rifle, or ever will be.

There might be some that have sentimental reasons for not wanting to see it altered, but I don't imagine there are too many people who would beat down your door offering hand fulls of cash for it either.  If others disagree let them convince you to post it in the for sale section for a price or best offer and let the bidding begin!

Think of it as an old car in mostly original condition.  Some cringe when thinking of somebody altering it.  Another guy looks at it and sees a hotrod in the waiting.  Some cars are rare and valuable enough that the former may be in the majority, but the owner is the only one with the right to make the decision.

Do what you will and Enjoy, J.D.

P.s. I was showing my 9 y.o. boy your bikes.  You've got a fan, esp. of the blue cruiser with the rack.

[Bill Ladd]

Well Bill , let me say , the rifle isn’t worth much .

Aww, man.  Now you tell me. And here I been going around telling folks I am now a 'bonafide collector of contemporary longrifles.'

Heck I've even been online shopping for a waistcoat and oak paneling to convert that back bedroom to a study in the doublewide.

But seriously folks.  For now I'm going to focus on refining it as a shooter.  We'll see what happens later.

[Bill Ladd]

If others disagree let them convince you to post it in the for sale section for a price or best offer and let the bidding begin!

That's an excellent point.  The rifle languished for a while on GunBroker.  Seller finally set a relatively low by-it-now price. It still sat for weeks until I bought it.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I like it! If it wernt for that man, they may never have taken off and started the craze that still goes today. Its guns like that that allow us all to get into the addiction and enjoy that plume of smoke.


And dont you think about ignoring my comment about welding me up a spare tire mount 

[Bill Ladd]

And dont you think about ignoring my comment about welding me up a spare tire mount 

I certainly can do it, but it would be sooo much cheaper and time-efficient to purchase off the aftermarket or have it done locally.

[Bill Ladd]

Best I can tell the nipple started out life as 14-28.

It's so galled up it was throwing me off on trying to get an accurate read.

My machinist put it up against his thread gauges and told me it looked like 14-28 to him, but since the threads are so bad, try running a bolt into the nipple hole (I hadn't tried that.)

14-28 does in fact thread in.  It's rather loose on my gun, but that may be from the galled up nipple being run in and out.

I wrote Dixie and asked.  Hopefully someone will know for sure and respond.