Maker's mark?

[Long John]

Friends,

I am working on a gun right now and I have become curious about those deeply impressed marks near the breech that I see on high-end originals and some higher-end contemporary guns.  I think they are called "maker's marks", but I'm not sure.  They are deeply impressed marks, usually near the breech, that are often filled with gold.

How are those marks made?  They go really deep into the metal surface!  Are they cut in with chisels?  If a punch were used it would take enormous force.  How did they do that?

I figured that some one here knows and would tell me.  Thanks.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[kaintuck]

They chisel out the middle, with a undercut edge, then press in a chunk of gold, tap, the take a die with your makers mark....wham!

Some do press a mark......but with a lot of equipment so as to not squish the barrel in.......hydrolic press, pressure indicators........

Marc n tomtom

[Ky-Flinter]

.......hydrolic press, pressure indicators........

On originals??

-Ron

[davec2]

Long John,

I have the same question if you are talking about the deeply impressed 3D marks I sometimes see on an iron barrel or knife blade.  Those types of deep marks always look to me as if they were done with the iron hot.  I have done the gold inlay kind of 3D marks with both a hammer and a press.  I prefer the press I built for control and repeatability, but I can't do the deep marks in iron without distorting something.  The press (or a big hammer) will generate the force required, but it displaces all the metal around the mark at the same time.

So....does anyone know how those deep marks were made on the breech of a barrel without distorting the bore?

Long John......here is an old post of mine on how I do the gold inlay marks       http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=1138.0

I think Acer did a post as well on one of his marks.

[smart dog]

Hi John and Dave,
I suspect that the old makers could stamp their barrels more easily because they were soft iron rather than our modern steel ones.

dave 

[Acer Saccharum]

My opinion, not fact:

Marks like the one below, I believe HAD to be done while the barrel was HOT. You'd need a mandrel in the bore to prevent crushing of the bore. Bore would need to be finish reamed after this stamping was done. Considering the depth of impression, if you had a finished rifled bore, the bore would certainly be damaged.







Below is a stamp I used for a maker's mark. I cut a round pocket, then cut lots of little barbs on the bottom, and then pressed the die into the pocket. It does not take the tonnage to form silver that it does iron, so I felt safe in cold pressing this into a finished-bore gun. I had a mandrel in the bore to support it, just in case.

[smallpatch]

Tom,
We need more photos of that original gun!!!

[jerrywh]

 Making a high grade stamp is quite a chore.  It is like making a die for a coin only smaller. There is a good description of how to do this by  Benvenuto  Cellini. from sometime in the 1600's. to the best of my memory. Engraving a negative image is a real trick without a cnc.

[Mike Brooks]

I built a pair of pistols around a original pair of English dragoon pistol barrels. The bores were dented under the English proof stamps.
 I wack my English proof stamps in with a 4lb. hammer. Usually takes 1/2 dozen wacks or so.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Keep in mind there is a difference between proof marks and gunmakers marks.  Regardless, all of them were undoubtedly applied well after the barrel was made and hot.  Certainly barrel makers may have stamped hot barrels with their ID stamps but it is very unlikely that the eventual gun makers did.  For example, John Twigg had a barrel stamp but I suggest that it was never applied when the barrel was forged.  Spanish gun makers used a constellation of stampings, some filled with gold, that must have been done well after the barrel was forged.  Again, I think the key is soft iron versus modern mild steel.

dave

[James Rogers]

Hi,
Keep in mind there is a difference between proof marks and gunmakers marks.  Regardless, all of them were undoubtedly applied well after the barrel was made and hot.  Certainly barrel makers may have stamped hot barrels with their ID stamps but it is very unlikely that the eventual gun makers did.  For example, John Twigg had a barrel stamp but I suggest that it was never applied when the barrel was forged.  Spanish gun makers used a constellation of stampings, some filled with gold, that must have been done well after the barrel was forged.  Again, I think the key is soft iron versus modern mild steel.

dave

I agree with Dave. Proof and view marks were not put on prior to those processes. I have a c1750 Spanish barrel on a gun with all the maker and city marks. It also has London tower wharf marks as well as English maker Joseph Heylin's mark done some 15-17 years later.

[jerrywh]

 Ron Scott does barrel stamps with a press. I suppose he places a mandrel in the barrel.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have two heavy bars of steel with drawbolts at the ends. The work goes in between the bars and the nuts snugged down. Bottom bar of the two gets held in the vise. Then I take a 1.5 lb hammer and give the top bar a settling blow. Snug the nuts again. Tap, snug, tap, snug, until I fell I have made an adequate impression. It's low-tech, but it works.

[Sawatis]

Tom,
We need more photos of that original gun!!!

I agree!  Hey the lock pins on that rifle are interesting...almost looks like the screw slots were cut in with a very skinny slitting chisel...Hey Acer...are the ends of the slots tapered  to almost shut?