Author Topic: Ball Starters Renewed Thread  (Read 26209 times)

Offline Virginiarifleman

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Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« on: April 11, 2015, 01:33:33 PM »
A while back i posted a new thread asking opinions on when or if ball starters or short starters called by some were in exsistence in the 18th century. most people and some self proclaimed experts said they were not around and no evidence of them being around.  well that myth has been busted. in the book the Encyclopedia of the American Revolutionary War. they have documented TWO ball starters  one with a powder measure attached to it documented to before the Revolutionary war.  so i guess the answer was YES they did exsist. not everyone carried them im sure.

Offline Robby

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2015, 02:04:41 PM »
Well, that's interesting Virginia. I have poor searching skill on this adjunct brain, and can find nothing but the book itself, quite expensive. I don't doubt your words, I'd just like to see it for myself. There have been countless arguments on this subject involving even more countless man hours and for myself, I need a little more. I have no idea if indeed they were used, but like most people in this field, it would be nice to have some historical validation. I use one and assumed, by virtue of common sense that they were used.
Robby
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Offline JDK

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2015, 05:01:48 PM »
I'm no expert, but know just because there are pictures of 'em in a book doesn't make it FACT.  A lot has happened since then, and we know we can't count on the memories of decedents.

While I've always read them, I've stayed out of these very arguments before as I they always boil down to the same thing.

Playing devil's advocate, I'd ague that unless something is recorded in period documents or appears in artwork known to have been produced at that time then what is the "proof" that something was used or done the way the author claims???

Personally I don't care one way or the other.  As Robby said, common sense seems to dictate that they were used, but what seems like common sense today is often refuted by the evidence....or, as can be argued in this case, the lack there of.

I too wish there was a way to interview many from that and other eras in our history to find out the facts, about the minutia of everyday life that has been open to conjecture, but there isn't.  So, like religion, it often simply comes down to faith and what one chooses to believe.

Enjoy, J.D.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 05:02:12 PM by JDK »
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2015, 05:05:37 PM »
I need 'em for the combinations I choose to load.  Many don't.  Maybe that's how it was. 
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2015, 08:54:21 PM »
The British issued them in 1800 with the Baker rifle...probably got the idea from an American a few years prior...the first part is documented, but that last part is speculation!!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 08:55:38 PM by D. Taylor Sapergia »
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Offline LRB

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2015, 10:09:39 PM »
A while back i posted a new thread asking opinions on when or if ball starters or short starters called by some were in exsistence in the 18th century. most people and some self proclaimed experts said they were not around and no evidence of them being around.  well that myth has been busted. in the book the Encyclopedia of the American Revolutionary War. they have documented TWO ball starters  one with a powder measure attached to it documented to before the Revolutionary war.  so i guess the answer was YES they did exsist. not everyone carried them im sure.

   I looked them up, but there is NO documentation of them mentioned. There are a small number of items in that book that are dated by speculation made at the time it was published, rather than by any documentation. The book also shows bullet boards, none of which can be documented either. You cannot trust everything in that book to be correctly dated, although it is a great book.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2015, 12:01:54 AM »
One cannot prove a negative but it takes only one exception to disprove a negative.  And, yes,  the burden of proof lies with the exception. 

I would not categorically say either yes or no.  To do so implies that one has proof of an item's existence.  The "nay" sayers stand on even less firm ground because there is absolutely no possibility of proving the absence of an item; remember, it takes only one to prove the yeh.
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Offline smart dog

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2015, 02:04:49 AM »
Hi Taylor,
Was that a ball starter as we think of them or a loading mallet?  I was aware of the mallet for Bakers but not a short starter.  By the way, Virginiarifleman, I read the original thread and cannot find once instance of anyone claiming they were "experts".  They all seemed like good folks trying to participate and discuss your question (which was a good one).

dave
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 02:14:30 AM by smart dog »
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2015, 04:32:48 AM »
J.N. George talks about the loading of the Baker rifle in his book,English Guns And Rifles and mentions the use of the mallet. The mallet was later droped because it was to cumbersome to use. I just cant see the troops using the mallet to hammer down a ball with only the ramrod. I would think they used a short starter first Maybe someone else can clairify this.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2015, 04:55:24 PM »
I need 'em for the combinations I choose to load.  Many don't.  Maybe that's how it was. 

My maternal grandfather hunted with a muzzle loading rifle from about 1879 when he was 6 until
the turn of the last century and when he saw a ball starter in my shooting box he asked what it was. I showed him and he said he had never seen such a thing and always pushed the patch and ball down with his thumb.
I have never seen a ball starter in any hunting gear pertaining to a muzzle loader and don't recall seeing one in the Art Museum's gun collection. Moulds that survive with the rifle they were used with show a ball about 1.5 calibers under bore size.This plus a coned muzzle makes an easy loading combination.Match rifle accuracy AS WE KNOW IT today wasn't a consideration back then.

Bob Roller

Offline Virginiarifleman

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2015, 05:25:29 PM »
Just going from what was printed and with pictures in the Book. i can't believe they would publish fake items in that book. but one can not say. also there were no pictures of a bullet block, just the two starters.

Offline iloco

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2015, 05:33:17 PM »
I need 'em for the combinations I choose to load.  Many don't.  Maybe that's how it was. 

My maternal grandfather hunted with a muzzle loading rifle from about 1879 when he was 6 until
the turn of the last century and when he saw a ball starter in my shooting box he asked what it was. I showed him and he said he had never seen such a thing and always pushed the patch and ball down with his thumb.
I have never seen a ball starter in any hunting gear pertaining to a muzzle loader and don't recall seeing one in the Art Museum's gun collection. Moulds that survive with the rifle they were used with show a ball about 1.5 calibers under bore size.This plus a coned muzzle makes an easy loading combination.Match rifle accuracy AS WE KNOW IT today wasn't a consideration back then.

Bob Roller

I agree with you.  Of all the books about hunting bags and accountements I have yet to see a short starter shown that was found with a rifle.
 I think the old timers loaded a patch and ball that started easy and rammed home easy.  Our modern ways has changed us into thinking we have to load as tight as we can.  Just my opinion the same as Mr Rollers.
iloco

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2015, 06:04:45 PM »
I need 'em for the combinations I choose to load.  Many don't.  Maybe that's how it was.  

My maternal grandfather hunted with a muzzle loading rifle from about 1879 when he was 6 until
the turn of the last century and when he saw a ball starter in my shooting box he asked what it was. I showed him and he said he had never seen such a thing and always pushed the patch and ball down with his thumb.
I have never seen a ball starter in any hunting gear pertaining to a muzzle loader and don't recall seeing one in the Art Museum's gun collection. Moulds that survive with the rifle they were used with show a ball about 1.5 calibers under bore size.This plus a coned muzzle makes an easy loading combination.Match rifle accuracy AS WE KNOW IT today wasn't a consideration back then.

Bob Roller

I agree with you.  Of all the books about hunting bags and accountements I have yet to see a short starter shown that was found with a rifle.
 I think the old timers loaded a patch and ball that started easy and rammed home easy.  Our modern ways has changed us into thinking we have to load as tight as we can.  Just my opinion the same as Mr Rollers.

My main reason (for loading a combination so tight as to need a ball starter) is not for accuracy, it is for shooting all day without needing to wipe the bore with anything more than the loading patch under the ball. Of course, this consistent loading with zero build-up lends itself to superior accuracy and speed of loading.

If we must do everything 100% by the period (provable), then let us first discard our graded powders?

Didn't Taylor say that the Brits issued a ball starter in 1800?  Likely no secret, and the product of testing and finding some advantage?  

And i really don't think that everyone did everything exactly the same way-in any time setting, except maybe when under direct military command.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 06:26:02 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline LRB

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2015, 08:14:50 PM »
Just going from what was printed and with pictures in the Book. i can't believe they would publish fake items in that book. but one can not say. also there were no pictures of a bullet block, just the two starters.

There was nothing printed except to identify the two objects as being bullet starters. The bullet boards/blocks are on page 159 in my copy.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 08:33:28 PM by LRB »

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2015, 08:17:34 PM »
Just going from what was printed and with pictures in the Book. i can't believe they would publish fake items in that book. but one can not say. also there were no pictures of a bullet block, just the two starters.

It's not that publishers or authors necessarily intend to publish fake items in a book/books. It's just that there have been many instances over our history when faked/incorrect items have put into circulation and after many years become "real". Happens on many levels of life.

I've actually seen examples of this when viewing private items that were used by "grandpa" in such and such war. In two such instances the items shown, were items that were put into service after "grandpa" had come home. One such item was a late Civil War cartridge box when the ancestor had been discharged for wounds way before that pattern had entered service.  The second was an M1 Garand that had a 51 dated barrel but the family member had served in WW2. Answer is that "Grandpa" had bought the item from surplus for nostalgic reasons, and later family had assumed it was what he had carried.

And I don't know either way if short starters were used. I use them in my recreational shooting, but if I were to do something on the historical side, I would most likely not use what I could not verify through strong evidence. Picture books do not often count as such.
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Offline LRB

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2015, 08:38:12 PM »
Exactly Clark. I use a short starter myself, but not in a living history environment, or event.

Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2015, 08:55:38 PM »
Quote
I think the old timers loaded a patch and ball that started easy and rammed home easy.  Our modern ways has changed us into thinking we have to load as tight as we can.
I agree but have no reason to know this is true.  I just can't believe that back in the day when a person's life might well depend on how quickly he could reload his rifle he would be carrying balls/patches that were as hard to load as what most of us use today.
Dennis
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2015, 09:39:12 PM »
Hard? None of my rifles is hard to load, but all of them require the use of a short starter. 

Tales (writings) of rifle matches and the accuracy achieved, stacked balls at 50yards for instance during the 1800's, show that they could not possibly have been using thumb started loads - in my opinion.  The reported accuracy achieved, rivals or exceeds that of most of us, today who use short starters and over-sized loads. Tales are tales, however.  On the other hand, some of the 'records' are/were re-writes of events at that time, however and are not merely memories blown out of proportion due to the time between the act and that of reporting. A number of the re-prints from letters or other documentation of events that happened at the various towns or forts. Many of these are included in the books "Firearms of the American West" - these are very good historic reading- well documented as well- one massive undertaking - if you are interested in that sort of thing, get the books! However, it's much easier to make a statement "this or that didn't happen" and then demand proof it did, rather than to actually put forth some effort to investigate and find out what actually did happen. If you want to know - do the research. 

As to coning, one of the lads here had a coned muzzle on his .40 rifle.  He had difficulty loading the balls and patches I found easy to load in my own rifle, which had a radiused crown, not a cone. The cone seemed to make loading difficult due to the "long, high drag bearing surface of the tapered bore,  whereas the appropriate drawing angle of the radiused crown (researched from Corbin) made loading easy. Thus, a single light blow to the starter, fitted the oversized ball into the grooves along with it's .020" patch.  This then shoved down the bore as it was already groove size and loaded easily.  That load will stack them from my rifle, to the point of a lump of lead for 5 shots, but not one on top of the other, as was reportedly done, "way back then". Was it done? More than one occurrence of this sort of accuracy at matches, seems to bear this out. This sort of thing actually increases the possibility that starters were used- by some - but perhaps only those interested in the accuracy they allowed to be achieved. Sere the commonly used?  There was likely not a reason for the improved accuracy they provided - however there were "Shooting Clubs' in the East and West, who were interested in accuracy - the rifles with them in pictures along with the sights on the rifles, show the members knew what they were doing. Using short starters and tighter than normal loads - likely. Through the 1800's Remington made and sold barrels to rifle makers. These were already turned at the muzzles for a ball or bullet starter - as shown both in Ned Robert's book as well as the books I cited above.

 When speed was of the essence  "way back then", it is documented that patches were not used and naked balls were - the same happened when running buffalo - speed and ease of loading was necessary, thus naked balls were held in the mouth, spit into the bore after powder was poured straight from the horn, capped or pan primed (before or after loading(?), lowered and fired into the buffalo - all at a gallop - what fun!  Dang - dropped my starter- HA! - none needed for that type of shooting, but - guns exploded when used that way if the ball left the charge before ignition happened. I suspect lots of balls were swallowed, as well. No wonder the M1860 Army and Dragoons were preferred for 'running buffalo'- the Colts held 6 buffalo in every cylinder. 

You guys really should get those books. Great reading and full of historical facts.
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2015, 12:12:35 AM »
I agree that the tight loads are more for keeping the bore clean rather than only accuracy.  I simply can't believe that this is something only recently discovered post WWII.

My rifles require a short starter but are easy to load even after dozens of shots; and the accuracy never changes during the process.  I've tried naked balls in my rifles and they were not accurate.  But they were more than accurate enough to hit somewhere on a human silhouette target at 50 yards.  It would appear that when speed was paramount, the quickness of loading a bare ball in a rifle was justified by the level of accuracy delivered (commensurate with the typical musket).  In the forest when possible targets may be a hundred or more yards away and with both parties concealed; a patched ball made more sense.

The question of when ball starters appeared deserves much research.  Does anyone know the date of the oldest, documented starter?  How about starting there and working backwards.
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Online JBJ

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2015, 06:25:33 PM »
Interesting discussion and it sent me back to Ned Roberts' book. On page 38 of my copy there is a very simple "straight starter" and loading block he used with his first rifle. Did he use it other than when he used the loading block? Was this common? Beats me! But it works for me and I'll stick with it. If what you are doing gives you results that make you happy, stay with with it.
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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2015, 09:28:10 PM »
I thought it was pretty well established that ball starters did exist at least in the latter 19th cent, but their use was pretty much either limited military issue or by target shooters.  Much of our 'modern' MLing technique derives from target shooters of the late 1800s. Numerous period acounts, including a few detailed loading descriptions, fail to mention the use of ball starters [other than a knife handle], loading blocks, special priming powder/devices [other than some military uses]...I published an article in MuzzleBlasts a few years back that summarized several period loading descriptions. The debate will go on I am sure...but I think most of the woods runners/hunters of the 1700s through say the 1820s loaded with the minimim of devices.  I love Audabon's description of Dan'l Boone loading for squirrel hunting...detailed even to the swabbing between shots, but no devices...

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2015, 10:35:25 PM »
Audubon’s account of squirrel hunting with Boone can be read at

https://books.google.com/books?id=c_DaAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA460&lpg=PA460&dq=Audubon+description++Boone+loading&source=bl&ots=INW24p0gSd&sig=j-O6FV2xuTNGBJmDRArrrRhijFs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lg8sVe-ZLY6rogSsqoCYCw&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Audubon%20description%20%20Boone%20loading&f=false

(Audubon and his Journals, Vol 2 by Maria R. Audubon, page 461)

Audubon clearly describes the gun being wiped between shots, but no mention of a short starter.  Why do you think Boone wiped between shots?


Offline Kermit

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2015, 11:35:52 PM »
Because "...if it is wiped once after each shot, it will do duty for hours."

 ???
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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2015, 01:20:37 AM »
Exactly.  You're really good at trick questions. 

Incidentally, the next section in Audubon's journal is worth reading as well.

Online JBJ

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Re: Ball Starters Renewed Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2015, 05:17:44 PM »
Interesting read and thanks for the link. Six hundred count linen patch would be a very tight weave and strong. Wonder what he wiped the bore with between shots?
J.B.