Author Topic: Nose caps  (Read 9437 times)

kaintuck

  • Guest
Nose caps
« on: April 19, 2015, 03:03:36 AM »
Ok.......I say this rifle building is just my hobby.......so, today, I made the nose cap for my CS build......THAT WAS WORK.......man......anneal an bend, anneal and tweak, anneal an bend....... :-X

Tomtom cuss jar is full now!


I might start pouring pewter nose caps ;D

Marc n tomtom

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2015, 04:27:00 AM »
I am near the point of making a nosecap for the gun I'm doing now.  Not the worst thing, but I'm not looking forward to it either.  For this one, I'm just gonna do a plain open ended cap.

I made one of the "formed" type of nosecaps once, where the metal is shaped up around to form the front end.  Not fun.  Of course, I had no proper jigs or forms to do it with and it was a serious PITA.  Brass does not shrink when you hit it...it stretches, and you definitely don't want it to stretch.  I'm not all that interested in doing another one like that!   :D
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2012
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2015, 05:03:31 PM »
Ok.......I say this rifle building is just my hobby.......so, today, I made the nose cap for my CS build......THAT WAS WORK.......man......anneal an bend, anneal and tweak, anneal an bend....... :-X

Tomtom cuss jar is full now!


I might start pouring pewter nose caps ;D

Marc n tomtom

You may need to invest in a bigger cuss jar.

Offline Ryan McNabb

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
    • McNabb's Station
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2015, 03:47:11 AM »
A lot more of these were soldered than people seem to think.  Use thick brass and round the edge some and don't feel like you have to smash every one out.

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2015, 04:33:16 AM »
 ;D
On she's on now.....just needs some filing and polishing.....I am happy with it, as I mad it to compliment my C weight barrel......ol fatty.... :P that's her name......
She be pinned into the stock soon.....but boy......them caps are a job!

Marc n tomtom

Offline Jerry V Lape

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2015, 07:15:44 PM »
Luckily my next build is of a classic builder who clearly soldered the end piece on the nose cap.  Very practical way to assemble the nose cap. 

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2015, 07:37:21 PM »
Don't forget the Tutorial section.  One on nosecaps: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24785.0
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 09:11:20 PM »
pickle" the part in hot vinegar. Flux just dissolves, leaving a clean part""

tom, will that dissolve the joint?...never tried it~just wondering???

marc n tomtom

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 11:09:28 PM »
Nope, the silver braze is just fine. Vinegar is pretty tame, does not harm either brass, steel or silver for the length of time in the bath. For steel, I'd wash the part with baking soda or ammonia to neutralize that acid.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2015, 01:15:21 AM »
Tom I agree that nose caps are time consuming to make. I've only made the soldered types but have been thinking on the hammered style and will go that way when next I do brass furniture. Thing is I'm off on this southern mountain style of late, but next will be a couple of VA types, oops, those will have steel furniture... Okay, some day, hammered brass.

Sure its work, but you end up with something you made by hand and that is worth it. The last time you posted pix of that gun it was coming along very nicely, do post more when she is done. Tom Tom should be willing to hold it up for you to photograph. right?

dave
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2015, 01:18:17 AM »
Tom,

They are not hard once you take the time to make the mandrels.   I used wood ones for a while, but recently took the time to make mandrels from wrought iron for B and C profile barrels.  I also have a big one out of wrought iron for a 1.125" barrel at the muzzle.  This last one was for my chunk gun.   I have used all to date with two small stainless steel hose clamps.  The clamps  must be at the very top of the mandrel where the nose piece is to end and near the bottom of the nose piece.  They must be extremely tight.  I leave a rectangular 2" section at the bottom of the mandrel to clamp TIGHT in the vise.  If everything is tight.  It takes one minute to hammer out the end of the nose.   A little filing and fitting and your are done.  

I can't remember the last time I cussed making one.   About the only time I do that is when I drill through the bottom of a forearm.   ;)

I have two blanks on the bench out of .25" thick steel plate for the swages/dies to go with the wrought iron mandrels.   Then I won't need the hose clamps.   By the way,  I used wrought iron because I have 1.25" round wrought iron bars that are the perfect size for forging out these mandrels.   I use what I have as even steel is expensive these days.    

I also have paper templates for the brass or steel blanks for the nose pieces.   They are just the right size so they close up around the mandrel perfectly and there is little waste to file away.  Like I said above, material is expensive.   Also the more waste, the more work to file it away.   I like results, not work. ;)  

Using all this stuff,  it takes me about 15 minutes and maybe one anneal heat for the brass to finish the nose, to make a nose piece ready to be filed to fit.   It is one of the quickest, easiest things I have to do on a rifle.   I can only assume that you don't have all the little pieces I mentioned above.   The more dies/swages/forms, and mandrels I make, the faster all the sheet good fabrication goes.   I started with hard wood than then moved to iron/steel over time.   I still use hard maple forms for the rear thimble tang and the patchbox lid and finial.    Just take a day here and there to make some jigs to make your work easier.  

I would solder on the end of the nose piece if I was doing a nose piece with a groove for the ramrod today, but only because I haven't made a mandrel and die for it yet.   It I had,  I expect it would only take an extra heat to form it considering that the ramrod gooves on the originals were pretty shallow.  However, most of the original nose pieces I have seen that had ramrod grooves were silver soldered.   I would do whatever the original maker did.  


Best,

Mark
 

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2015, 01:30:54 AM »
If I wasn't clear,  I make one piece nose pieces out of both brass and steel sheet using he exact same method.  I use .040" brass, and 22ga steel sheet.    There is no need to anneal the steel sheet, at least not the weldable steel I buy at Lowes.    If I were to make a sterling silver nose piece, I would use 20 or 22 ga sheet.   

I don't think that I have ever made a soldered steel nose piece.  I don't recall ever seeing one on an original.   The original steel nose pieces that I have seen were more rounded on the end as in they were just formed and installed without any significant filing.   I do the same with mine.  That is why I can get away with thinner stock.  They don't need to be filed except to smooth out the hammer marks. 


Offline louieparker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 831
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2015, 02:40:01 AM »
Mark I  don't recall seeing anything but a two piece metal nose cap on a Tennessee mountain rifle. LP

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2015, 02:43:53 AM »
LP,  maybe I don't see so good.    Well, actually,  I know I don't.   ;D  Unfortunately,  I don't normally do closeup photos of nose pieces.    I will have to look closer next time. 

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2015, 03:02:40 AM »
Louie,

I went and found recent photos of a Bean rifle and two iron mounted VA pistols.    I didn't have high enough resolution photos of the nose piece on the rifle to tell for sure if it were one piece or two.  I saw indications that could have gone either way.   

On the pistols,  given their small size, I had high resolution photos of every inch.   They did clearly show two piece nose pieces, even on the one nose piece that didn't have a groove.   I guess, I was seeing what I was expecting to see.   

I will have to reconsider how I do the iron nose pieces in the future.   It is so easy to do a one piece, and more troublesome to do a two piece.   Perhaps,  I just didn't want to see the two piece nose pieces.

Thanks for setting me straight.

Am I missing a good reason to do a two piece nose piece?   If it was done on the originals,  there must have been a good reason.

Mark

Offline whitebear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2015, 06:19:31 AM »
Mark, I am watching this post with much interest as I will soon be making a couple of rifles with nose caps.  What would be a good reason for making a two piece nose cap rather than forming a one piece cap?  Could it be that the old masters didn't have the dies to form a one piece, or they didn't want to take the time to make the dies, or was that the way they were taught as apprentices?
In the beginning God...
Georgia - God's vacation spot

Offline Stophel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4532
  • Chris Immel
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2015, 06:55:47 AM »
Regional styles.  In some areas (like Reading, PA) the formed nosecap was common.  In other areas you might see open ended nosecaps, nosecaps with the end piece soldered onto the end of the main piece, nosecaps with the end piece soldered inside the end of the main piece, rivets, screws, crimped corners... just whatever was in use by the specific gunmaker or region.   ;)

For the "early Reading" guns, the formed type is proper, and I did this one several years ago.  I did not have any jigs, forms, or dies to make it, so I did the best I could.  I eventually got it hammered out.  Screwed to a threaded post dovetailed to the bottom of the barrel.  If I recall correctly, some of the "Christian's Spring" guns have similar nosecap arrangements.


open ended Lehigh cap, rivetted on the bottom in the rod groove:


Can't really see, but a silver soldered on end piece cap.  Rivetted on the bottom in the rod groove:


An open ended nosecap where you can see one of the copper rivets holding it on:


In some of the published photos of one of the Rupp guns you can very clearly see the nosecap has its end soldered on.  Likewise, the Oerter griffin rifle shows a similarly fashioned nosecap.  J.P. Beck guns appear to have formed caps (from what I can tell), and are held on by three iron rivets in a distinctive triangular pattern.  Different things were done in different places.   ;)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 06:58:04 AM by Stophel »
When a reenactor says "They didn't write everything down"   what that really means is: "I'm too lazy to look for documentation."

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2015, 03:53:05 PM »
I'm wary of the nosecaps on antique guns. Many have been replaced with something passable, but not necessarily accurate. Whole forestocks have been replaced, barrels stretched, and with that comes a new nosecap.

One piece tutorial: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9.0

In the past, Tom Currie has demonstrated this process at Dixon's Fair.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2015, 04:48:52 PM »
I tried with wood forms like Herschel suggests, hose clamps, etc.  Then like Mark, I made a couple swage forms for these by filing shape on end of chunk of iron, added a "step" to keep sides from sliding down in vise jaws as I forge the front edge over.  But Jack Brooks has gone much farther, developed and sells a two piece swage like the old gunsmiths used, including a groove for ramrod, which is tough with a one piece form.  I think it's been reviewed or mentioned here previously.  Bob

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2015, 06:25:08 PM »
The only trouble I see with the metal swage, it's very limited in size. If I were to only make one size cap, I'd spring for one.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2015, 09:29:40 PM »
From our modern perspective, we sometimes think we need a special or perfect tool for each operation, each situation, size barrel, etc.  And we like to talk about them on blogs like this one.  I don't remember where I've seen the photo of an old gunsmith's entire tool collection - it has been published several places.  But only one swage block for forends.

Now that gunsmith probably did not build rifles in styles from 1725 to 1850 like we might, but there was variation in barrels he worked on over his career.  It's pretty simple to squeeze the nose cap shut a bit, or pull and file open, to cover a good range of common barrels.  (Not talking .25 and .75 bores here.) 

Still good to follow local traits, e.g. two piece iron on Tennessees, etc.  And follow a particular rifle or builder when we can.  Bob

JohnTyg

  • Guest
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2015, 06:00:58 AM »
Or just use a piece of iron plumbing pipe (from an old post).

John




Offline Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3133
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2015, 06:58:34 AM »
I made this one out of some cold rolled steel. The tab helps to keep things in place while pounding. I have use this to make big and small caps. You just squeeze down the size in the vice and use a rod to form the fold over sections as in the tutorial shown by Acer.










The cap is now too small to be hammered on the mandrel and must be hammered using the method here. The machinest vice keeps the sides from spreading out.

fitting of the formed cap filed down to size.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2020, 09:31:34 PM by Dave B »
Dave Blaisdell

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Nose caps
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2015, 02:10:25 PM »
 
 

all I need to do is work her down a little, round off the edge~ and pin her......

marc