hawken plan question

[Joe S.]

while gathering information for this hawken build I bought the full scale drawing from totw.While I won't be using tracks parts I thought the plan could be helpful.My question is how accurate is the fullstock drawing.Been looking over many pictures both original and good copy's to get used to seeing the lines etc. if that makes sense. Looking at barrel,lock, nose cap and butt to try to use these as guides when it comes time to get the wood right,wrist thickness, forend ect.Thought maybe tracks plan could prove useful if accurate. thanks,Joe

[rich pierce]

 A plan such as that is usually not based on a specific original.  Keep in mind that J&S Hawken and later Sam made rifles over an extended period.  That no original full stock flintlock Hawken rifles remain in flint condition.  That furniture, lock styles and other details changed over time.  So if you want a generic full stock rifle with features that J&S or Sam alone used at some time or another, a plan like that will work.  If you are full-on interested in replicating the style of a particular original, or something built during a specific time period, you research will have to be much more extensive.  Or you could go with a Don Stith kit.

[Joe S.]

good point,you would have to narrow the search to a particular maker,year ect.Guess I should think more in terms of generic for a first build and work on getting a  hawken type rifle down before getting a period perfect piece.

[rich pierce]

So when you say "maker" you mean Jake Hawken, Jake and Sam (J&S), or Sam Hawken, correct?  Hawken rifles of St. Louis are not a type, they are rifles which were made by specific folks named Jake Hawken, his brother Sam, or the two of them in partnership. Anything not based closely on their work is not a Hawken rifle.

(I keep modifying the post)

You may not like an authentic Hawken plains rifle.  They were heavy rifles by and large, weighing up to 11 pounds.  Good for across the saddle. They bear little resemblance to mass produced so called "Hawkens". 

You may know all this; if so, you know what you are getting into.  Hawken rifles are among the most challenging to build.

[Joe S.]

yes,while all have similaritys they have differances at least to the trained eye.Me not being one of them I will probably asking a lot more questions. Will also look back at old posts because I'm sure at one time or another all the same questions I have been asked time and time again.A new prospective is always welcome though.

[rich pierce]

Dan Phariss and Chuck Burrows are members here who have studied Hawken originals quite a bit.

[Joe S.]

sure I know there's plenty of work ahead and will have my hands full.I'm pretty handy and have plenty of patients and there's no time table to get things right.Besides how hard can it be(humor)I have read enough posts to see the hair pulling done by others.Putting it all in my head for future use

[Joe S.]

thanks will try to look up all and gather as much info as possible.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The plans you got from TOTW will be very useful.  If you want a full stocked rifle, it will have different architecture that a half stocked one, apart from the shorter wood, etc.  The cheek piece and the butt architecture in general resembles more a SMR than a half stocked Hawken.  The wrist is thinner and less robust.  But the most glaring mistake' I see is the use of a butt plate that has the wrong curvature.  Here is where your research will pay off, and your selection of parts.  If you are truly interested in a good representation, post pictures of your stuff from the beginning to get feed back.  You mentioned that you are not using TOW's parts...whose then?

[Joe S.]

getting my stock and parts from pecatonica(have not heard anything bad about them)also have some assorted parts from different sources. Have both so called early style trigger guards for instance.I plan on using the one that's most comfortable to shoot with.Yes I know if you pick the one tight to the wrist you get called on it but if it feels right.......besides bet if some fellow walked into the Hawken gun shop back in the day and said can you put this one on it seems to be better for me bet they did it.Gotta figure it was like buying a truck,this be the base model and here's a list of some options.

[Joe S.]

been looking over your hawken you built that another member was nice enough to add to my first post.I hope I can get close to that,one pretty rifle.

[Topknot]

Joe, It is highly recommended not to try building a hawken as your first project. It is just not recommended, too many variables and a whole bunch that could go wrong. Why not just make something easier for your first couple of projects.  Then after a few builds when you have a better grasp of gun building, then study-up and research a while on exactly which one that you want to copy and then go ahead and build it.

                                                       topknot

[Herb]

Here are some of Jim Gordon's 24 original Hawkens in his museum in Glorieta, NM.  The fourth and fifth from the bottom are fullstocks.  These are also shown in his book.

 Tracks's plan is a good one.  The actual photo shows a short nosecap, while the drawing shows a long one.  The short one is correct.  I use Track's MC-SC-16-I, which is two  inches long, but cut it to 1 1/2 inches.  I use Rod entry pipe RP-TC-RE-7-I, which is 3 5/8 inches long but cut the skirt to 3 inches long.  They show a 14 1/4" Length of Pull (I guess to use up the whole butt plate), but unless you are very tall, a shorter trigger reach is much easier to shoot.  I like 13 1/2" and have built to 12 1/4", like Jim Bridger's Hawken, and I think Kit Carson's.   The Butt plates can be cut to about 4 1/2" or so.   Below is a Hawken I built from Track's parts and plan, plus two others I built.
 
If you are thinking of building from a blank, you will learn what misery is.  I have built 12 to 15 Hawkens with at least 8 of them from the stick, even left handed, and they are very difficult to get right.  I'd sure go with Track's parts.  Is yours to be flint or percussion?

[Herb]

Here are five I built.  The top one is from Stith's parts, with a 14 1/2" LOP, which the customer did not want changed.  Then next is my .58 Track fullstock flint Hawken, plus three more I built.

[Joe S.]

going to a longstock flinter,left handed ,going to color case harden the butt and lock myself.Still pondering inletting a hunters star in the cheek,made out of antler or bone.Most folks seem to think I'm biting of more than I can chew.I  am a pretty darn good carpenter and have some metal working experience as well.I'm willing take my time and if it takes a year to get it right so be it.Thanks for showing more photos of builds.

[whitebear]

Good Luck

[Joe S.]

hope that's a good luck with your build and not a good luck from the dock to somebody getting aboard the titanic, lol,things will be fine I have you folks to help me thru if I get in over my head with something.I am never afraid to ask for guidance and not to proud to ask for help,thanks in advance,Joe

[bama]

Hi Joe
I too wish you good luck with your build. It sounds like you are confident in your skills which is a good thing.  A Hawken styled rifle is a difficult build if you are trying to hold close to the originals look and feel. This is hard to obtain even for those with a number of builds behind them. The only way to fully understand this is to build one, which I am pretty sure you are going to do. One thing to always remember, even though you are atempting to build a Hawken styled rifle, it is your rifle! Build it the way you want it! More important than the final look is the fit and function. A beautiful rifle that does not fit or function is nothing more than a pretty wall hanger. Most of the componants that you are going to get are good and will make a great rifle how good is up to you.

I built my first rifle from parts from Dixie Gun Works. I knew nothing about building a rifle and the final product was a rifle that did not look bad but had about a 25 lb trigger pull. I did not know anything about the proper trigger sear relationship. After building that rifle i started paying more attention to how parts are supposed to work together from a mechanical standpoint.

Your first rifle will not be perfect either but you will learn and do it better on the next rifle. That is what i have been doing for the last 45 years. I still learn something with every build.

Good luck, Jim

[Daryl]

This is a nice one & weighs 11 1/2 to 12 pounds, but of course is 1/2 stocked and later styled.

[whitebear]

Yes Joe that was a "Good Luck" on your build.

The guy that coached me on my first build, Walter Schmidt, told me " build it and be proud of it, you will be doing something that most others don't have the guts to try.  If it looks good, great if not still great but at least you had the guts to try"

[Chuck Burrows]

With all due respect IMO there is no such thing as a generic "Hawken" if you want to do it right (with certain caveats). Again IMO I believe the best way is to makeake as close a copy of an original as possible and Don Stith's kits, while more expensive than the others, are all based directly off originals and not some one's interpretation.
As Rich noted above there are several periods of Hawken rifles, but even within these periods there can be some variations especially in the early period pre-1849. But even when Sam took over after Jake's death in 1849 and began making the quintessential half-stock in a more less generic style, there were variations.
Variations exit between various individual rifles and periods and include: line of comb from buttplate to where it joins the wrist, cheek pieces vary not only style: beaver tail, eastern long rifle "square" style (common on full-stock of all periods albeit even some full-stocks such as the late 1850's Kennett have a beaver tail, beaver tail's also vary quite a bit in shape and size as well as being paneled or unpaneled. Other variations include: Fore end length and position of the keys, buttplate shape/size and whether two piece handmade of later cast, triggerguards varied in size and shape as well as being hand forged or cast, barrels: straight, swamped, or tapered with tapered being by far the most common. Barrel lengths varied from 32" to 42" with 36-38" being common whether halfstock or fullstock and that's just a start when taking this journey of discovery. Elsewhere Don Stith generously offered his help and I would take it if at all possible. You'd probably learn more in a short while talking with him than reading all the books.
caveat 1: While I recommend Don Stith's kits as being the most accurate, there are those makers who can use the somewhat disparate parts as offered by Track, etc. to make a good copy - Herb, who posted above did this with his nice copy of the Bridger Hawken made by Sam.
caveat 2: There are a few VERY few makers who know Hawkens so well  that they can make a Hawken that's right without making a copy of existing rifle. The late Tom Dawson was one and today I'd bet Louis Parker could as well along with Don Stith of course....