Anyone have recommendations on TVM kits?

[kaintuck]

 
Ahhh....the benchback syndrome!!.....I have a stool handy now, and a big glas of tea.

Most likely, those Tennons need staking in....but, IF YOU SOLDER, CLEAN THE INSIDE OF THE BARREL 1st.
Otherwise, you will bake oil crude into the rifling....

As far as a build......it will take time...think 1" at a time.....cause once it's built, your workmanship is what you'll look at for years.

I used to work on one from 4am til 4pm......forgot I was married, forgot I had a yard to mow etc.....all I could think of was building......go slower, you'll get a more harmonious outcome

Marc n tomtom

[frogwalking]

My best friend has been working on one of Matt's kits for quite a while now.  I would suggest that you pay a little extra for the stock upgrade as Frank's kit stock is very soft and plain.  I strongly recommend that you order or make dovetail tennons.  Dovetails will also be required for the sights, so it is much better to cut your first ones under the barrel where they are out of sight.  Also, if you screw one up, the dovetail base solders into the notch very well.  In my limited experience, precut dovetails are almost always too big.  If you are going to make muzzle loaders, you will be cutting many dovetails, and doing some soldering too.

Another note.  Frank also bought a completed rifle someone won as a door prize.  Matt made it.  It looks a little slab sided to me, but it is light, and shoots great.  Matt's prices are very hard to beat, and his kits are good preparation for more advanced work.  Good luck.  Oh.  When  you make a mistake, ask this bunch how to fix it as we all have done it, several times.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll assume the web of wood between the barrel and the ram rod groove is monsterous thick. What's it measure?
 I'd send the rusty siler lock back for replacement.

[hanshi]

I have a TVM .36 x 38" x 3/4" SMR.  I got it as a finished rifle.  It is a skinny little rifle, a fly weight, and a joy to carry.  It's also capable of 3/4" groups at 50 yards.  A longer barrel on this little guy might have looked comical.  When I ordered my Tn .32 poorboy, I got a swamped, A weight transitional barrel.  While not as light as the .36 it is much lighter than I anticipated.  If I had known that I would have opted for a 42" barrel.  With the 36" barrel your combo should make a perfect squirrel rifle.  I have a .45 x 36" straight barrel late Lancaster that handles like a dream and has killed most of my deer taken over the years.

[frogwalking]

I made a .40 cal. rifle for my son using a TOW precarve and a 7/8 inch 38 inch long straight barrel.  The finished rifle weighed in at a hair over 8 lbs. and balanced pretty well.  The TVM rifle with a similar sized barrel should work fine.

Mike:  Both of the rifles I have seen from Matt had a pretty thick web between the barrel and the ramrod groove.   As I also noted, the one I shot was a good shooter.  For the price, they seem to be a good rifle.  Much better than any of the imported guns.

The ones I saw did not have the ramrod hole drilled full depth, but had a groove routed beneath the barrel to ensure there would be no wayward holes.

[kaintuck]

I'll assume the web of wood between the barrel and the ram rod groove is monsterous thick. What's it measure?
 I'd send the rusty siler lock back for replacement.

Heck.....finish rusting it, I mean browning it.....

Tomtom said that!

[blackjack]

Okay, Saturday night update.  Have to be out of town for the next 10 days (that pesky job keeps getting in the way, don't you know.)  But I'll be building this thing in my head the whole time.

Took the insult about my non-soldering heritage to heart and went to Lowes and got a soldering iron.  Quickly found out that ain't enough to heat a rifle barrel so went back and got a benzomatic torch.  Got two of the TVM provided tennons to fit into the holes and soldered them.  Filed down the solder and the tops of the tennons and inletted the barrel into the stock.  I wanted to leave the barrel strapped into the stock for the time I'm gone so they can get to know one another better.  (Some TOW dovetail tennons will be waiting for me when I get back and I'll put one in as the third if I can't get that other TVM tennon to solder on.)

Started working on the butt plate and have it close.  But as you know in the rifle building world, close isn't good enough.  So set that aside for later.

Took another look at the lock in more detail, worked it back and forth a bit.  My initial description of "rusty" was a slight over-exaggeration.  There's a couple of dim spots on it, but I'm looking forward to taking it apart for the inletting, learning how those things work, polishing it up shiny and getting it into service.  The lock slips into the pre-inlet TVM sent me, but I'll have to do some more trimming to get it seated and flush against the barrel.  It appears the touch hole will line up perfectly in the middle of the pan.

Yes Mike, they left most of the tree on the front end even after shaping.  The web measures 7/16 on the front between the bottom flat and the top of the ramrod channel.  The barrel only shows about 1/4" above wood down the length, and the ramrod is almost wood enclosed.  Lots of shaping to do there, but I kind of like the opportunity that gives me to make it mine.

One surprise was that the ramrod hole can be seen through a gap in the stock under the back end of the barrel.  The first tennon didn't have to be inlet because it's hanging free in the trench above where the ramrod will go.  I'm not sure if they did that to save weight, simplify construction or what.  But it's not what I expected having looked at my other rifles.  (I learned how to remove a barrel the first time I had a dry ball.)  I know that's not how it is on the best rifles, but I am told it can be made to work so I'm thinking about how to do it.  I'm contemplating sanding or skorping the ramrod channel deeper at the muzzle end, but not at all sure about that yet.  

Also, the 5/16" ramrod that came with the kit doesn't fit down the hole.  But I'm hesitant to sand my super skinny rod down even skinnier.  Opening that hole up a little might be the way to go.

Thanks again for all the help, encouragement and even the occassional Bronx cheer.  Even though my back and neck still hurt, this is FUN.  Not to worry though, I have a couple of days relaxing in airliner seats for my back to get better.  That and some ibuprofen.  And maybe a little session with my life coach, Jack Daniels.

[Mike Brooks]

Sanding is used for finishing wood, not wood removal. That large web is what makes a gun look slab sided, you're stuck with it now, no way to fix it. Expose more than 1/2 of your barrel and ramrod, it will help. File the ram rod down to fit the hole, it won't be a problem. It probably won't fit the pipes either. Sounds like you're doing well with it. BTW, those tennons are to be staked in, not soldered. You can buy  a staking tool from TOTW.

[blackjack]

Update:  back from Oregon where I picked up a couple more files and a pair of rifflers that I think will greatly help in finishing up the rifle.

Does anyone else feel like it was almost impossible to get the butt plate on right?  I've tried every trick people suggest and only slowly brought it into line; a lot of little bitty microplane strokes and a little riffling, bu now the butt plate is on and looks pretty good.

Never could get one of those tennons staked and soldered in the front position so I cut my first dovetail.  The TOW tennon fits tight and was easy to stake and file flat on the sides.  Feels solid as a rock.  I still don't trust those soldered ones but they're in the middle and back positions and I can always take them off and cut dovetails if needed. 

Barrel is now fully inletted, holes drilled and pins in place.  Fits down in that massive wood block very snug.  It's pretty humid here now and I think the stock is slightly swelled because of that, so just hoping it doesn't get to sloppy once the humidity drops down.

Presently working on getting the toe plate inletted--my first attempt at real inletting--and then will take down and clean up the lock and begin final fitting it.

I'm really appreciating how much work was done by TVM on this kit before selling it.  When I think of the effort and skill that goes into cutting the barrel channel and inletting it accurately, it definitely gives pause.

[Pete G.]

Soldering is NOT the way to attach the loops that you have. Since you have already cut one dovetail, do two more. The tennons are easily made from 14 ga. sheetmetal available at Lowe's. Use the same 3 square file with the safe edge that you used to cut the dovetail in the barrel and with a little care you will be on the road to success. Besides, over time having two different methods of having the barrel attached will irritate the $#*! out of you.

Don't forget to put fore and aft slots in the tennons after they are drilled for the pins.

[hanshi]

Interesting comments and suggestions not only about Matt's rifles but building from a kit as well.  I simply could not do a build - even though you once encouraged me to do so, Mike.  Don't have all the necessary tools and being saddled with "essential tremors", among other things, confines me to a "tinkerer" (or is it just "tinker"?).

I do have a few long guns and most were built by Matt.  I have noticed and have become aware of a few things concerning TVM guns, those by other makers and some original ones I've "studied".  Matt's builds do often show excess wood but I'm not sure I'd call them "slab sided".  A friend and I both have TVM EA fowlers.  Both built by Matt.  His (same barrel) gun is quite slender and "whippy" while mine is more "robust" and both have taken deer.  My .36 SMR is super skinny as is my LL .45.  The rest have more wood than they need though they quickly come to the shoulder with sights fully aligned.  I think it's safe to say that since Matt builds from a plank no two are anywhere near alike.  My two LLs differ an incredible amount.  Come have thicker webs than others, etc, etc.  I've seen rifles by other recommended builders with some being rather woody.  Not to mention a few originals with quite heavy stocks. 

Though probably a good idea regardless of whom will build the gun and particularly with a TVM build is to give specifics on what one wants, I did.  Further, if such things matter, even giving dimensions for the stock is warranted.  I did with a couple but not all because it didn't matter with the exception of those two.  I am, however, so picky about certain requirements that my EL had to be mounted with LL fittings.   

[blackjack]

Okey doke, weekend update for anyone interested.

Got the tang screw drilled and screwed into the trigger plate, inlet the nosecap, inlet the entry pipe and narrowed down the forearm quite a bit.  I'm learning to pace myself, which is good for my back as well as giving me time to think about the next step, to hopefully avoid stupid mistakes.

Someone told me no one can build a perfect rifle.  The only people with perfect rifles are those who know how to fix and cover up mistakes very well.  Not sure how good I am at covering them up yet but I'm sure good at making them.

First lesson:  inletting brass to wood looks easy.  It's hard, and even when it feels like it's going in great, one little slip and you have a mistake to fix.  My butt plate looks pretty good if I do say so myself, but the toe plate meets the wood evenly only 60% of the edge.  I'm going to have to do some backfill to fix that.

Micro planing, rasping and then chiseling the front wood for the nose cap went well and I felt like it looked pretty excellent.  But then, moving the stock around to work on other areas, that thin little piece of wood projecting from the front hit something and cracked at the joint to the rest of the stock.  After throwing up and hoping I can find a way to make it work anyway, I continued work and hit it again, knocking it off.  This is the biggest mistake so far.

Now I'm trying to decide whether to put some 1/16 pins through that thin wood into the stock to reinforce it or just epoxy the $#*! out of it and hope it holds.  The nosecap snaps on to the end of the barrel in a very snug fit which seems fortuitous.  During church this morning I thought about cutting back the barrel by two inches and redoing the nosecap, but tennons are already installed, sight dovetails cut so that's a no go.  I thought about getting a new 31-34" bbl to replace the one I have (Bobby Hoyt lives a couple miles away), but not wild about the additional expenditure.  So for now I'm thinking of finding a way to make the nosecap work on the existing stock, even if that means gluing in a piece of maple as a patch.

Next lesson:  center punch BIG divots in the steel you're planning to drill.  I put punch dents in the tang and trigger and used a drill press to line them up.  The drill still slipped from the spot assigned and both holes are off center in the metal.  By widening the tang hole and counter sinking it liberally I have it so it doesn't show as a glaring error, but anyone who knows these rifles will notice it immediately.  Sucks, but I can think of no fix for this except for replacing the breech plug or even the barrel, which I also considered (see above).  I've got it so it works and doesn't look too bad, my only worry being that big screw down through the stock might interfere with something in the lock.  I haven't inlet that yet so we'll see.   Could be exciting.

I tried to take the entry pipe really slow and intentionally after the above mistakes because I know that's one of the first things rifle critics check.  It's in, and looks good though the excess wood around it is not removed yet.  The only problem is the ramrod will not go in.  Not on a bet.  I sanded it some and rounded the tip, still no go.  I'm going to ha to do something with the ramrod channel and still thinking about it, but the ramrod is already just over 1/4" and is bound to break eventually.

As Mike Brooks points out, there is a LOT of wood on the stocks TVM sells in their kits.  I'm saving shavings and sawdust for the inevitable repairs.  I started shaping the forestock to get a better feel for how the nosecap was to fit and have almost totally exposed the ramrod channel.  I'm probably going to sink the pipes a little into that channel to make sure the ramrod slides in and out easily.  The plan for the moment is to round the top of the stock to the lower 1/3 of the barrel, but haven't gotten that far.  Also haven't touched the lock inlet or side panels, stock shape etc.

Anyway, to people thinking of doing a build from a kit, I think I can now confirm that the TVM kit is excellent in that a lot of the super hards stuff is already done for you.  That may limit your choices but it also saves you a lot of work and trial by error--mostly error--learning.

I'm sticking with this to the end and doing my best to make it not just a fun rifle to shoot, but as pretty as I can.  I already know it will be full of mistakes, so it will never be a $6000 special on the board here, but it will definitely serve to give me a better understanding of these glorious old machines that dominated our "conflict resolution" efforts for so long.

Thanks for all previous comments and suggestions--all are read and taken to heart.  Feel free to suggest, critique or just bloviate.

Jack

[Dennis Glazener]

even if that means gluing in a piece of maple as a patch.

Nothing wrong with that, I would think the nose cap would cover it.
Dennis

[PPatch]

Nice writeup, the issues you're having were pretty clear. The tang bolt should not interfere with the lock. Generally one beds the barrel and tang then does the lock right afterwards, then the triggers, etc.

Measuring for drilling and punching for center is one of those things you take great care with to ensure your hole will be centered, you are learning. Do not worry too much if the tang bolt is slightly off center at this point. At the Norris Tennessee/Kentucky show I once purposely examined about 35 rifles in a row (old guns) and about a third had off-center tang bolts. Not by much, but off. You're in good company.

It is normal to have to fit the ramrod to the pipes which requires some thinning of the rod, not a whole lot but some. When installing the pipes you will want the lower inside lip of the pipe to be even with the ramrod channel, this requires care during the inletting. Leave it high or too low (deep) and it is a problem. It (the lower inside pipe lip) should rest just right and even with the wood in the channel. All the other pipes are done the same. Are you SURE the rear pipe is round and will the ramrod go into the hole without the pipe there? Check everything.

"...have almost totally exposed the ramrod channel. "

Don't quite understand this statement. pictures would help, and pictures of that broken nosecap and toe plate area too, well  heck, pictures everywhere...  

Keep at it, sounds like you are doing pretty good and learning a lot. That is what first guns are for.

dave

[blackjack]

Dave, here's a pic of the ramrod channel.  You can see how thick the web is on this stock so I'm planning on removing even more wood around the channel so the ramrod is almost totally exposed.  That's what I meant. 




Also the entry thimble will have to go a little deeper into the wood in order for the ramrod to line up properly so I'm going to get it set and working before putting on the first and second thimbles and contouring the bottom completely.



Additional pics on problem errors follow.

[blackjack]

Here's the problem toe plate.  Not terrible, but I want to fill in around the edges where there are gaps with some epoxy and sawdust mix to close them up.



Here's the off center tang bolt hole, with and without the screw and the tang bolt channel from the side.







And here's the problem nosecap, first missing the broken piece, second with the piece in place, then with the nosecap on.

[blackjack]

Probably should have posted this earlier, but here's the plan for the decor.  Still deciding on a finish.

[Mike Brooks]

That's going to be a tough transition from the muzzle cap back to the rest of the forestock due to the Mongo sized web. I don't have much advice for that one. Otherwise you're coming along. Probably doing much better than I did when I started out.

[PPatch]

Keith;

Interesting set of problems there.

Nose cap: Looks like you will have to either figure out a way to glue it back on as is or glue another block of maple on. It will be a "butt" joint either way and those are not strong. I would try gluing the original  on first and if it didn't work then go the new wood route. With the new wood you would have to do some very careful prep work to ensure a joint with no gaps, plus it would be better to have a couple of splines spanning the new and old wood to help with strength. You would then have to be extremely careful working the new wood into shape and inletting the nose cap. If you glue on new wood I would make a new, longer, nose cap to hide the glue joint and provide a little more stability. In any case you will want to use epoxy when you install that nosecap.  Nosecaps are not all that difficult to fabricate, there is a tutorial here on ALR. Installing one you made is a whole lot easier than one of those prefab caps. There is another option: buying a new stock, one with a thinner web would be great. You are not that far along as yet, might think about that.

Entry thimble/ramrod: Will the ramrod go into the ramrod hole and seat where it needs to be at the back of the ramrod hole? Can you run it through the thimble with the thimble off the gun? If not install the ramrod tip and do the scraping and file work needed for it to travel all the way back in the hole first - go slow, try it for fit often. After that it should thread the thimble fine. Inlet your thimble down were it needs to set, nice and even with the ramrod channel so the rod goes through the thimble and down the ramrod hole. Very lightly clamp the thimble in place and make sure everything fits and you get little resistance to putting the ramrod home down the hole. Next pin it in place. Do the others.

Toe plate: Forget this sawdust and glue mix for hiding bad inletting. What you need to do is buy some brass the same thickness or a wee bit thicker and make a new, longer, toe plate. Inlet it carefully. you can use the old one as a pattern, or shape it anyway you please.

Tang hole: leave it, on the next one remember how touchy and carefully you have to measure for the hole. Or, try and fill the hole and redrill, there are a couple of ways to do that. This brings us to the trigger plate an that bolt showing in the lock mortice. Odd.

Trigger Plate: How centered is your tang bolt hole on the trigger plate? Looks to me like it and the tang hole aren't centered. This would not have happened if you had came from both top and bottom when drilling that bolt hole. Looks like that bolt is out into the bridle area of your lock inlet. The only way you will know is to inlet the lock fully - which should be done pretty much right now.

Decoration: Simon Lauck is a good man to copy. I know your "decoration" page is just sketching but sooner or later you will have to get serious about drawing the designs so that you know them by heart. This takes drawing them over and over again.

To sum up: Inlet that lock so that the bolster is snug against the side flat on your barrel and so you'll know if that tang bolt is messing with you and how to shape your lock panels. Consider ordering a replacement stock if you can't get that nose wood problem solved, one with a proper web thickness. Make a new longer toe plate, consider making a longer nosecap. On a tang bolts drill from both the tang and trigger plate sides (use one of those drill press guides and be very careful).

Good luck, slow down and think through each step as you go. Hope this helps.

dave

[frogwalking]

From the photo of the nosecap break, it appears that you took a little too much wood off near the rear of the nose cap.  You may want to buy some accraglass epoxy, put mold release on the barrel, and glue the wood and nosecap, filling the thin area with glue.  Later, if you want to be sure it doesn't break, remove the barrel and carefully inlay some dense wood under the barrel across the old break.  Never forget to use mold release.  Many barrels have been permanently glued to stocks.

If anyone tells you a better way to make the repair, follow their advice.  They all make better riles than I do.

[blackjack]

Thanks for the detailed critique dave and the comments froggy.

Tang screw did indeed interfere with lock installation so repositioned the threaded hole on the trigger, plugging up the old hole and widened the tang screw hole to accomodate the position.  Now works great and is much more solid feeling.

Yes, ramrod fits fine through the unmounted pipes, and have opened the channel enough for it to slide in and out past the entry pipe.  That one is almost solved, just need to sand the ramrod a bit more and it's done.

Still unsure about what to do with the nosecap but am getting some Accraglass on order today.  Going to my old black powder shop today to get some brass stock, a piece of maple and any advice I can squeeze out of them.

Actually, the super thick web may be my salvation on making this one shoot-able since that gives me a lot of room for error.  I'm pinning the front of the trigger guard and the inlet has wood to spare below the mainspring.  A new stock is not out of the question, but I really want to try to make this one work, even if it looks like a first rifle when I'm done, and then apply lessons learned on my next one.   Yes, Virginia, there sure as heck will be a next one after learning all this.

[PPatch]

I think Frogwalking is dead on with the accraglass. Do be careful to NOT glue anything not needing it. Test fit everything before using that accraglass, work out exactly how you will clamp everything and think through the whole process before beginning. Once you complete the joint just walk away, give the glue plenty of undisturbed curing time before doing anything else to the nose cap area, or for that matter doing anything on the stock. I'm sure you have some metal work to do, like that toe plate and maybe the lock.

When you get your new toe plate you should file a 5 degree (plus or minus, it takes almost nothing) draft on those areas going into the stock. This means the top of the plate is very slightly wider than the bottom surface. You could then test inlet the new plate into a scrap piece of wood to refine your inletting skills before doing the stock inlet. up to you. Leave the top surface of the toe plate a wee bit proud of the wood then carefully file it even. Filing even brass takes forever so when I say a wee bit I mean a few thousandth.

Glad you figured out the lock bolt problem, I had a feeling it was protruding into the lock mortice.

RR pipes all figured out, good.

Remember, think it threw, test all clamping before doing the actual glue job.

dave

[blackjack]

Okay, weekend update.

Rifle is basically together.  Just working on problems now, and still haven't addressed the nosecap.  Across the board, I'm not really happy with the inletting, but it seems to get better as I went along.







Entry thimble took the longest and though it's in, surrounded by wood and works great with the ramrod, I still have to clear away the wood around it and smooth it out.  Spending time looking at other entry pipes to get a better idea of how to shape it.



The pan is good and tight up against the barrel and the lock is held solid by two screws, one under the frizzen spring.



Still haven't addressed the broken nosecap--saving that for last.  Also feeling my way along on shaping the forestock end leading up to it.  As Mike observed, that big web is going to be a trick to make look right.  The forestock is about 1/2 the way up the side flats now, but I'm planning to take it down lower as I get more into shaping.

[blackjack]

Biggest job now is shaping the stock all over and sanding it smooth.  This is probably the hardest thing for me because I'm no artist and even looking at another rifle, it's hard to see how best to duplicate it.  Plus, you can take wood off but not put it back on, so I'm trying to go really slow and intentional.



I'm getting to really appreciate all the work that TVM did before I got the kit.  The lock pretty much slipped in.  I just had to work the lock panel back so the lock would seat and function right.  The trigger inletting was perfect and put the trigger right under the bar.  This rifle is going to have one of the best trigger pulls of the rifles I have.

Taking the weekend off from this project to go to a Civil War mementos show down the road here in Gettysburg.  As always, any comments or suggestions most welcome.

[Pete G.]

Some of the old Italian replicas used a solid one piece nosecap that was pinned to a barrel tennon. You might could turn up one of those somewhere.

The problem with the web is easily solved with a scraper made to fit the RR channel. I ground an old file to shape and put about a 60 degree bend in the end. That and a round rasp are used to scrape the exposed RR channel deeper. Won't help much in the lower fore end, but it can make a tremendous difference in the upper.