it shoots low...

[Mike R]

How about some opinions on this:  I have a new custom early lancaster built from a Chambers kit with a Rice 44" swamped barrel in .54.  With 95 gr ffg powder [after starting with 85 & have tried fffg too] and a tight fitting .530 patched ball it has consistently shot low off sand bags on a bench--real low. First shots did not hit the paper.  I have filed off the front sight to nearly the point where there is not much left to file. It still shoots well below a 6" bull at 50 yds. If I place the front sight on top of the 6" bull the ball drops >6 " below bull.  I have a .54 Getz barreled rifle that shoots center with 85 gr ffg. This is not to attack any barrel--I know that Rice makes a fine product--but this is frustrating me.  A gunsmith friend has suggested that maybe the barrel is warped [he has not seen it yet] or bored off center [unlikely, I think--haven't most makers corrected the old Douglas barrel 'problem'?]. I have not seen much improvement through raising the powder charge or switching to fffg and the front sight is already pretty thin.  The next step may have to be changing out the rear sight for a higher one. Any thoughts?

[40Haines]

I had a similar problem with a Chambers kit.

With swamped barrels, depending where you place the rear sight can make a big difference in POI.

Do some measuring to figure out the sight heights.

Your baseline should  be the height of the sights above the centerline of the bore.

Your front sight should be a couple thousands lower than the rear.

I believe in TRACKs catalog they provide you with the rear sight height info to make your selection easier

All will work it self out.

I doubt it is the Rice bbl - could be - but I doubt it.

[Roger Fisher]

If she were mine, I'd install a higher rear sight and go from there.  That will probably fix her and it's easy to do....!

[Longknife]

Mike, FIRST, I would check to make sure the barrel has not been bent??? Take it out of the gun and use a straight edge or set it on a flat surface, A steel welding table, a steel beam., or just a flat piece of sturdy, straight, steel. check surface with a straight edge to make sure it is absolutely straight. It may be necessary to set it on steel blocks on each end to make the sights and lugs clear. With the sights up measure the distance between the plate and the barrel at the waist (thinnest part of the barrel) with a dial caliper. Turn the barrel over and measure again. Measurements should be identical. If they are not you can "tweak" barrel till they are. If they are the same you can still tweak her to raise the group. ( I hesitate to call this "bending" the barrel, thats what barbarians do!!!) Record measurements before and after "tweaking". You may have to do this several times to get her to group. You may also have to re-inlet the barrel to seat it properly in the channel. GOOD LUCK......Ed

[Charlie B]

Along with advice already given you might want to check crown. A little off one way or the other can make a difference.

[George F.]

I know they are busy people, but they do stand behind their product, try giving the Rice barrel Co. a call, and explain to them your problem. I would also have some specific measurements available. For measuring the swamped barrel, after laying it on a straight edge, mark the spot around the barrel so you are measuring the same spot, and measure the distance from the barrel to the straight edge, or what ever you are laying it on with a caliper, and write them down.Also do the same with you sights . Measure the height of your rear sight off the top flat of your barrel with the caliper where you would line up your front sight, write it down. Next measure your your front sight the same way and write that down, then take 1/2 the bore's diameter and add that to the rear and front sight's measurements. Compare them. You can probably lay this on the kitchen counter. Just mark the counter with a piece of tape and pencil a mark, you probably don't want to  mark the counter, dark tops make it hard to see marks, besides sometimes they rub off. It's important you measure from the same spot both barrel and table/ counter top... Geo.

[1861Sniper]

 I would like to see what a laser would show if centered in the bore. I have a laser desigend to fit the bore with several collets and a taper to center the muzzle end. That would show actual boreline...
 DOC

[Dave W]

Mike,

Had the same problem with a Chambers Edward Marshall rifle I built a while back.  And I installed a taller rear sight to correct the problem and now the gun shoots right where I want it.  (about 1.5" high at 50 yards).

There is an article in the 1998 version of the NMLRA's Muzzle Blasts online entitled, "Understanding sight adjustment" by Leonard Walline, that lays out how to easily figure out how much you need to move your sights to get the POI where you want it.  It should give you an idea of where you will be on the paper after a sight modification...

Dave

[Mike R]

Thanks for all replies.  I don't think it is a Rice factory problem--if it is the barrel alot of stuff can happen during and after shipping. But they may be able to give me measurement info. I think the easiest solution is to install a higher rear sight. Now that I have raised the shots onto the paper, I think I first need to shoot for best group to determine load. Then I'll install a higher sight--could do that first, but I want to be sure it is not my loads first. I have not encountered this problem with any of my other rifles--and I have many!

[Daryl]

By all means, Mike- work up a load first,then adjust the sights.  You will probably need the front sight to be up to 1/16th inch lower than the rear sight. This would be normal for a .50 through .54 - after the work is done on the load.  If you want to shoot a less than optimum load, you may need more rear sight height.

[Roger Fisher]

Mike,

Had the same problem with a Chambers Edward Marshall rifle I built a while back.  And I installed a taller rear sight to correct the problem and now the gun shoots right where I want it.  (about 1.5" high at 50 yards).

There is an article in the 1998 version of the NMLRA's Muzzle Blasts online entitled, "Understanding sight adjustment" by Leonard Walline, that lays out how to easily figure out how much you need to move your sights to get the POI where you want it.  It should give you an idea of where you will be on the paper after a sight modification...

Dave

Tolja!

[Mike R]

By all means, Mike- work up a load first,then adjust the sights.  You will probably need the front sight to be up to 1/16th inch lower than the rear sight. This would be normal for a .50 through .54 - after the work is done on the load.  If you want to shoot a less than optimum load, you may need more rear sight height.

I got to thinking about this...Rice Barrel Co. website recommends a .530 ball and .016-.018 patch for the radius bottom rifling, but state a MAXIMUM load as 90 gr ffg--I am already up to 95 gr ffg and was thinking of trying fffg {I did fire a few with that powder}.  I have been using .015 patching [seemed tight], so will try thicker stuff. I have now achieved the 1/16th sight difference without replacing the rear sight--I am going to get the best grouping load before fooling with sights anymore...I assume from posts some of you greatly exceed 90 gr ffg in your .54 rifles?  No problems?

[Daryl]

A .530" ball is too small for best accuracy in a .54 with normal flat bottomed .010" to .012" rifling & a .015" patch.  Rice makes these square grooves as well as round-borromed grooves, which are much deeper.  Deeper rifling requires heavier patches - period. In order to load a heavier patch, you may need to re-crown the muzzle make it smooth, with no sharp edges at the tops of the lands - which your factory barrel most certainly has.

If you are finding a .015" patch tight with a .530" ball - something is wrong.  I can almost thumb start that combination and push it in with my little finger. Well, maybe I'm exaggerating a bit., but that is a loose combination if you are interested in the accuracy your barrel can produce.  If not interested in good accuracy and you want to wipe the bore often - no probem - you can leave the crown and use a loose combination. At 25 yards, it will still shoot a ragged hole - but at 50 and beyond, you need tighter combinations. All the guys here are compeititive and use .535" balls and .020" to .022" denim patches, whether their barrels have square (shallow) or rounded (deep) rifling. None of them have to wipe for an entire day's shooting & their rifles are accurate.

.54 should be able to handle a descent load.  90gr. 2f is a very low pressure, low velocity load in a .54. It might give 1,500fps.  1,800fps is  getting into the best accuracy and plenty of power for big, big game.

[Leatherbelly]

   Somethings amiss here. I've got a .54 to shoot good with a mere 65 gr. of 2f using a .022 patch and a .530 r/b,L/V lube. Never needed more than 80 gr.of 2f to shoot good in any .54 I've owned. Maybe look at the crown again and check your patch after the first shot. My first thought would be your crown is off and the barrel is flinging them low.Check to see if that crown is out top to bottom. How slow a twist is that barrel and is it round bottomed?

[Mike R]

It is the standard slow twist Rice 44" swamped barrel with round bottom rifling.  The factory suggests .530 ball and .016 or greater patching, with 65-90[max] gr ffg.  The crown, I believe was done at the factory and neither the maker nor me have messed with it--it looks pretty regular, but certainly is not coned.  I started with the load my .54 Getz barrel likes, 85 gr ffg and .530 ball with .015 patches [this may not be the most accurate load, but groups well enough for hunting--both of these rifles are relatively new and I am still working on loads--I did hunt with the Getz barreled rifle last season].  That load in the Rice did not hit paper, low.  I have filed off 2/3 of the front sight and raised the load to 95 gr ffg to get the shots ~ 6-7" low at 50 yds.  Next I am trying a tighter patch combo and fffg.  I really do not want to shoot over 100 gr in either of these rifles--that is why I traded off my old .58, which needed >100 gr to perform well.  I have plenty of smaller bores which I can shoot if this .54 requires alot of powder--it is pretty, maybe I'll just hang it on the mantle.  But until then, I would like to at least get the sights/load in the bull at 50 yds.  I wish I had more time to get out to the range, but my schedule won't let me and probalby won't for a couple months now...I got spoiled with my other rifles, all of which were close to being "on" when delivered--the first rifle I built myself I never had to touch the sights, drilling dead center right off.  Normally a small adjustment is all I have needed, but this one has been a trial, not the least of which is probably "operator error" from an old man's eyes...

[hanshi]

In my .54 (.530 ball) I shoot 53grns of 3f and patch with pillow ticking as a target load at 50 yds.  It loads fairly tight but is just as acurate when I go to a thinner patch.  It has a 66in twist with .007 rifling depth.  My hunting load of 100grns 3f does as well but hits about 3 inches higher.  The muzzle is not coned or relieved, just crowned.  Just a little anecdotal info to consider.

[Dphariss]

How about some opinions on this:  I have a new custom early lancaster built from a Chambers kit with a Rice 44" swamped barrel in .54.  With 95 gr ffg powder [after starting with 85 & have tried fffg too] and a tight fitting .530 patched ball it has consistently shot low off sand bags on a bench--real low. First shots did not hit the paper.  I have filed off the front sight to nearly the point where there is not much left to file. It still shoots well below a 6" bull at 50 yds. If I place the front sight on top of the 6" bull the ball drops >6 " below bull.  I have a .54 Getz barreled rifle that shoots center with 85 gr ffg. This is not to attack any barrel--I know that Rice makes a fine product--but this is frustrating me.  A gunsmith friend has suggested that maybe the barrel is warped [he has not seen it yet] or bored off center [unlikely, I think--haven't most makers corrected the old Douglas barrel 'problem'?]. I have not seen much improvement through raising the powder charge or switching to fffg and the front sight is already pretty thin.  The next step may have to be changing out the rear sight for a higher one. Any thoughts?

It could be bent. If not correctable with a slightly higher rear sight you will need to have someone check it to see if its bent.
If so it requires someone who understands the process to straighten it. High tech tools are not needed just what to look for and understand what is being seen and correct it.
Soft barrels like 12l14 are pretty easy to bend.
If the bore was "crooked" and not straightened before being planed/machined octagonal it may be difficult to fix.
Many 54s need 100 grains to shoot well sometimes more. I had a 72" twist  Sharon percussion that only tightened up at 120 FFFG.

Dan

[Daryl]

I had much the same thoughts as Dan - of course.  The barrel may indeed be bent. Mike's experience shows he knows what to do. The question on crown shows it has the same sharp edges normally cut with a lathe or muzzlecrowning tool with straight edges. I merely suggest round in the edge not coning the muzzle.  I don't like cones. The muzzle's condition was raised by the comment about a .015" patch being about as thick as could be easily loaded - we find a ball .005" under with .020" as being easy to load - in a nice smooth crown.

As to powder charge, few use the charge that the rifle wants, rather picking a 'charge' and sticking with it as it 'shoots good enough'.  Mike- raising the charge or thickening the patch won't bring the POI to where it should be with 1/16" difference between the sights.  Still being 6" low is what brought the 'possibly' bent or crooked to mind. It does indeed need to be checked and corrected if possible. 

[Dphariss]

The crown could be the problem.
Factory crowns are often a little "off", not concentric with the bore. Might look perfect but when set up so the bore runs true in a lathe the ugly truth is evident. This can cause the ball to be pushed in a given direction every shot. May not effect accuracy a great deal or at all but may move the impact point.

I see no reason to "funnel" a bore more than 1/8 -1/4" and then just a slight relieving of the lands below the crown is plenty.  Kinda like a 2-3 angle valve job in a engine head. My crowns are not large in diameter either. Its the smoothness and angles that make it work. A deep, rough crown with a bad angle is still bad.
I seldom "relieve" the bore but it does help with loading pistols which are hard to hang onto while seating a ball.
2-3" deep funnels are perhaps HC but not really needed and likely work best with looser ball/patch fits as used back in the day. Putting a choke in the bore ending tight 3-4" from the muzzle will aid in loading since the ball moves easy once past the choke.
Some pretty picky shooters have reported this to work very well. I am fairly lazy and hate lapping if I can avoid it.
Dan

[Leatherbelly]

 Dan,
   Great explanation.Thank you. To bad I missed you when you passed through. Been to Montana once on the scooter. Very beautifully diversified terrain. Went corner to corner and took in the Custer Battle site and the Rosebud battle site. Sure liked it down there. Enough,let's get back to SHOOTING,sorry.

[Daryl]

With fast twist pistols, you can get away with thin patches due to the normal light loads developing low presssures.  The lower the pressure, the lighter the patch which provides easier loading.  This is why paper ctgs. shoot so well in low velocity, big bores, but not in high velocity, high pressure small bores.  Where a thick, .022" patch and .445" ball is needed in a .45 rifle shooting 70gr. to 80 3F, a .45 pistol shooting 20gr. 3F can get by with an easy loading .015" patch and .440" ball.  You can almost thumb press the ball flush with the muzzle - the easiest of loading, yet at 50 yards, still shoot into an 1-1/2" off the bags, of course.  With such low pressure and speed, there is no fouling buildup and accuracy remains constant.  My .45 rifle needs 75gr. 3F, the larger ball and thicker patch to match the pistol's accuracy at 50 yards - it's past 50 yards where the rifle outshines the pistol.
My .54 pistol barrel (for the same gun) is made from a piece of rifle barrel, has slow, 66" rifling and demands 50gr. 3F to shoot reasonably well - 2 1/2" at 50 yards.  It is not as accurate as the fast, 18" twist .45, and requires a larger ball and thicker patch, harder loading.

 As to a rifle's accuracy, even a smoothbore gun with only a front sight can shoot 1" groups at 25 yards for 5 shots. Rifles need to be tested and load developed at 50 yards and farther.

[Darkhorse]

You comment "Old man's eyes" might mean something here. Exactly how far down the barrel is your rear sight. As mentioned before, moving the sight farther away down the slope of the swamp can really lower the top of the rear sight.
I have a .40 Rice with a sight placed farther down the barrel and the front sight ended up only about .100 or less high.
A higher sight might just solve your problems real simple like.

[Mike R]

You comment "Old man's eyes" might mean something here. Exactly how far down the barrel is your rear sight. As mentioned before, moving the sight farther away down the slope of the swamp can really lower the top of the rear sight.
I have a .40 Rice with a sight placed farther down the barrel and the front sight ended up only about .100 or less high.
A higher sight might just solve your problems real simple like.

Yeah, I thought of that--the sight is actually too close to my eyes--I bought this rifle "second hand", the original owner never shot it but used it as a wall hanger.  I considered moving the sight forward but realized that it would lower it even more.  If  I go with a higher rear sight, I might also move it forward and compensate with a tall one--not sure I'll like the looks of it though....Many old rifles have hardly any front sight heigth at all and mine might end up that way...

[Roger Fisher]

You comment "Old man's eyes" might mean something here. Exactly how far down the barrel is your rear sight. As mentioned before, moving the sight farther away down the slope of the swamp can really lower the top of the rear sight.
I have a .40 Rice with a sight placed farther down the barrel and the front sight ended up only about .100 or less high.
A higher sight might just solve your problems real simple like.

Yeah, I thought of that--the sight is actually too close to my eyes--I bought this rifle "second hand", the original owner never shot it but used it as a wall hanger.  I considered moving the sight forward but realized that it would lower it even more.  If  I go with a higher rear sight, I might also move it forward and compensate with a tall one--not sure I'll like the looks of it though....Many old rifles have hardly any front sight heigth at all and mine might end up that way...

Still think a higher frt sight will cure your problem.   Remember that the old boys were usually shooting in the timber and we usually are shooting in the 'open' . The old boys generally had no concern about mirage but we do!  So, a higher sight would also help that problem!