Author Topic: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom  (Read 11182 times)

Offline louieparker

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2015, 05:03:33 PM »
Jerry I have found the same thing on old barrels. For example I removed the plug on a 52 caliber plains rifle. It was a standard  breech plug. It  was 13/32 inch long and three complete turns tightened it up to home.  A southern mountain rifle's plug was 15/32 inches long and it also took three complete turns to tighten it to home. Some of the old plugs will go into the breech a ways before the threads engage and actually appear to be smaller than the bore. I guess because of burnout at the breech?   LP

Offline shortbarrel

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2015, 06:55:42 PM »
I got a can full of pieces, about 1 1/2 inches long, that I cut off the breech end of old wrought iron barrels. Some were old and some were very old. There was no shoulder in any of then to seal the nose of the plug. The pieces had from 3 to 6 to 6 course threads in them, except one. None were pitted very much in the threaded area. I've seen new barrels that didn't have enough shoulder in them to seal the nose of the plug. I take time to get a tight fitting thread, but the nose seal thing, I don't do any more. I think the post a few above this one about tell it all.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 08:10:14 PM »
In the ML era people were not shooting powder with very high percentages for potassium perchlorate that produces very aggressive fouling.  Unlike BP fouling the fouling this chemical produces will rust under an oil film or at very low humidity. Look at the erosion around the drum on many percussion rifles from the past. This is chlorate salt corrosion from the chlorate caps (a slightly different chlorate than that in the "modern" BP replacement but only a couple of grains total material in the cap) eating away the metal. Flintlocks that have never been converted are not eaten away like this.  If ONLY BP is used the risk of having fouling in the threads not so serious, its not likely to eat the metal to any great extent. The chlorate powder very likely will cause problems down the road if the bore is not eaten out first to the point its difficult or impossible to even load (I am sure this is what saves many people with Walmart special MLs from hurting themselves) and breech problems are not something I want to worry about. Since we cannot control what the customer shoots or how he maintains we have to take precautions.
The corrosion capability of this material has been well proven repeatedly by friends who have either used it or had customers use it. Some of this has been reported here IIRC. I have done testing with it and seen the results of customers of the company I used to work for using it. The neat part is that it can dissolve the steel and not even produce red rust. Shooting it can produce after rust for a YEAR (yeah a year) with repeated cleanings  in a vintage rifle with a not so perfect bore (linked to chlorate priming). So allowing this stuff to get into some fouling trap anywhere in the "pressure vessel"  is really scary.
The other problem with not sealing the threads is modern thread tolerances. Which while they allow interchangeable parts also allow massive thread leakage of gases or fluids. In the modern world the tap cuts threads several thousandths larger than the part that in to be turned into the hole. Is some cases, of the tap is upper limit and the part lower limit there can he a LOT of slop is a 1/4 vent liner for example  This is especially important when nipples or vent liners are installed. If the nipple, for example, is not seated on a flat seat matching its flange it will leak cleaning fluid around the threads when plugged t o flush with water. So I use a piloted counterbore with a brass sleeved pilot to cut a flat on the patent breech for the nipple to seat on, only takes 10 seconds or so to do it right. I have had vent liners gas cut. While many here seem to consider seating to a shoulder an unnecessary bother one must consider the consequences.
While I admit that the sloppiest breeching is extremely unlikely to blow out (when new), and at least some barrel makers know this and as a result do really sloppy breeching jobs that result in really cool fouling traps that when removed loo like this.

This is the plug I pictured earlier before I cleaned the fouling off. Now I am SURE that its impossible to blow it out (when new anyway) but I still have "trust issues".
One should ALWAYS work to a higher standard when human life is at stake. But the folks that make MLs and the parts that go into them don't seem to get it in far too many cases.
So we get poorly breeched barrels, locks from some suppliers with sear and tumblers so poorly aligned that they are not safe or will be unsafe soon after being put in service. But they have a customer base with, for the most part, no comprehension of liability and how far it can reach.  Besides MLs never blow up.  Everyone "knows" this.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Online Scota4570

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 11:27:06 PM »
Great post!

We all try for a perfect fit. Sometimes a little fouling leaks in there anyway. 

I slather the male and female threads with the stickiest grease I got handy, usually bullet lube or the silver anti seize thread dope.  The idea being to fill any gaps in the threads and not give fouling a place to hide.  I wonder if something even harder like heat softened bee's wax, automobile door hinge lube stick, or even hot melt craft glue might be of value to seal off the threads?   

Offline davec2

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2015, 10:56:11 PM »
Mechanical strength of the plug is not at all dependent on the face "seal" (if you can call it that - really not much of a seal for 10,000 to 15,000 psi gases.  There is no way in $#*! that I could seal even 1000 psi air pressure with an arrangement like that in the aerospace world.  What finally makes the "seal", as evidenced in the old guns, is the packed in powder fouling in the first thread or two that cannot be removed during normal cleaning without un-breaching the barrel and cleaning the threads.) 

The thread engagement does effect mechanical strength, but even a 75% thread is much stronger than the barrel wall itself (as Jerry points out).  I get the idea of worrying about corrosion in the threads and / or creating a fouling trap.  In my case, I seal the plug with either the medium strength (blue) Permatex thread locker or with Permatex blue RTV silicone gasket maker.  (I use this same stuff on rocket engines).  Both will keep the fouling out...waterproof, solvent proof....easily removable if the barrel needs to be un-breached.  Hardware store pipe dope or teflon tape would probably work just as well.

You can "over-engineer" almost anything.
"No man will be a sailor who has contrivance enough to get himself into a jail; for being in a ship is being in a jail, with the chance of being drowned... a man in a jail has more room, better food, and commonly better company."
Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1780

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2015, 03:07:16 AM »
I always coat my breech plugs (liners and drums) in white lithium grease before installing them.   I don't know how durable it is, but I figured it would keep out some of the fouling.   It certainly makes it easy to take breech plugs (or liners and drums) back out.   However,  I don't breech many barrels these days.   I buy almost everything from Rice or Getz which come factory breeched.   The  only time I have to breech a gun is when I have to make an extra long, or over the comb tang.    My fits are better than the factory fits as I carefully file and polish the new breech plug to fit exactly.  It is quite time consuming to hand fit a breech plug with a file.    I leave the factory breech,  if I can,  for no other reason than that makes the barrel maker liable for a failure and not me, theoretically.    I know, in reality, both our insurance companies will be paying.   :(   

As has been said before,  it is more likely the barrel wall will fail when the user forgets his place, and does something unfortunate, like a short start.    My personal experience is that the single most dangerous part of shooting muzzle loaders is talking on the line.    I hate when people come over to talk to me while I am loading.   That is when I forget where I am and potentially do something that might result in a bad day.     I have sure had some close calls in my 40 some odd years of shooting,  and I think my concentration is getting worse as I approach old age.   I am just trying to put things in perspective.   

ShutEyeHunter

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2015, 02:07:34 AM »
I (gasp) end up using Pyrodex etc all too often. When I moved to CO a few years back, the mover wouldnt take the BP & it seems to be made of unobtanium in Western CO. Figured that anything with perchlorates needs a good seal to avoid corrosion behind the plug. Hope to find BP in Denver next time Im through there. Marijuana is legal--BP seems like its only available on the black market

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Bottoming tap breechplug--doesn't bottom
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2015, 02:38:02 AM »
You can order black powder by the case (25lbs) from a number of sources (see the back of Muzzle Blasts or Muzzle Loader) and UPS will deliver it to your door anywhere in the continental US.  It only takes money.  ;)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2015, 02:38:46 AM by Mark Elliott »