Brownells Tough Quench for Frizzen?

[KLMoors]

I need to harden a frizzen.  Have any of you folks tried the "Tough-Quench" oil for hardening a frizzen? I'm wondering if it will be close to the Parks 50 in speed.  Does anybody know of another oil quenching alternative that doesn't smell as deadly as ATF?  I almost never have to harden something this big, so I really don't want to pay for a 5 gallon bucket of Parks.

By the way - this is a frizzen from an L&R lock I am using on my double flintlock shotgun build. I managed to drop the lock on the concrete and the frizzen on the right hand lock broke at the heel a couple of days later.  Arrrrrrrrrgh.

Thanks.

Ken Moors

[B.Habermehl]

I use cheap olive oil for almost all my heat treating, the nice part is I can heat treat chisels and stuff in my shop. It just smells like I'm cooking or baking. BJH

[Bob Roller]

I need to harden a frizzen.  Have any of you folks tried the "Tough-Quench" oil for hardening a frizzen? I'm wondering if it will be close to the Parks 50 in speed.  Does anybody know of another oil quenching alternative that doesn't smell as deadly as ATF?  I almost never have to harden something this big, so I really don't want to pay for a 5 gallon bucket of Parks.

By the way - this is a frizzen from an L&R lock I am using on my double flintlock shotgun build. I managed to drop the lock on the concrete and the frizzen on the right hand lock broke at the heel a couple of days later.  Arrrrrrrrrgh.

Thanks.

Ken Moors

I have used 10W motor oil for years and Kasenit for an enhancer. The later L&R locks have frizzens made from bearing steel,52-100. I haven't had any complaints on the L&R frizzens made from this material and I use 3 of their locks' external parts for platforms to install my own styles of mechanisms.
I had about 150 sets of external parts for a Bailes lock made up for a German shop and the frizzens were cast from 52-100 and the foundry recommended that I quench them in warm oil after enhancing them with Kasenit.
After that I simply played a small torch over them and when a light straw color appeared I quit.I know this works because NONE have been returned for replacement. I did recondition one and fit it with a second frizzen last year on a lock made in 1982.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

I need to harden a frizzen.  Have any of you folks tried the "Tough-Quench" oil for hardening a frizzen? I'm wondering if it will be close to the Parks 50 in speed.  Does anybody know of another oil quenching alternative that doesn't smell as deadly as ATF?  I almost never have to harden something this big, so I really don't want to pay for a 5 gallon bucket of Parks.

By the way - this is a frizzen from an L&R lock I am using on my double flintlock shotgun build. I managed to drop the lock on the concrete and the frizzen on the right hand lock broke at the heel a couple of days later.  Arrrrrrrrrgh.

Thanks.

Ken Moors

I have used 10W motor oil for years and Kasenit for an enhancer. The later L&R locks have frizzens made from bearing steel,52-100. I haven't had any complaints on the L&R frizzens made from this material and I use 3 of their locks' external parts for platforms to install my own styles of mechanisms.
I had about 150 sets of external parts for a Bailes lock made up for a German shop and the frizzens were cast from 52-100 and the foundry recommended that I quench them in warm oil after enhancing them with Kasenit.
After that I simply played a small torch over them and when a light straw color appeared I quit.I know this works because NONE have been returned for replacement. I did recondition one and fit it with a second frizzen last year on a lock made in 1982.

Bob Roller

Too early in the day to be doing this.How OLD are the L&R locks you have. Back when L.C.Rice had the company they got stuck with some frizzens that were no good beyond fifty shots. L.C. himself told me this and it nearly destroyed his business. They can be case hardened but that won't hold up unless there is a good quality of carbon steel under the case hardening.

Bob Roller

[jerrywh]

 You are supposed to temper the frizzen so it doesn't do that. The ATF worked for me for 55 years. After you harden a frizzen you should temper the lower part back to a blue color all the way to the bend of the pan cover. It's not the oil it's the method that caused the problem most likely. If quenched to hot it could have cracked at the bend.

[Acer Saccharum]

I had problems cracking frizzens until I heated the quench oil. It's not ATF, but some light oil I had around the shop, about 10 WT. It stinks.

In the past I had also tried hot water, thinking it would harden better. This was too much of a shock for the frizzens.

[KLMoors]

Sorry I wasn't clearer in my post. I hadn't done anything with the frizzen prior to it breaking, other than dropping the lock on the floor.      The forging may have been a little funky, as about 1/2 the thickness of the frizzen at the break is discolored.

The reason I need to know how to harden one is that the new one they sent me has not been hardened and tempered yet. It needed to be filed to fit and drilled for the pin. I've got all that done and need to get it hardened and tempered. The instructions sent to me say to heat to 1500F and then temper for an hour at 350 F.  My issue is that the ATF takes my breath away similar to breathing in muriatic acid fumes. It really knocks the wind out of my lungs. This must just be some unusual reaction because I know lots of people use the ATF without problems.

Bob, this lock is a couple of months old. The original frizzen worked pretty well, not as "sparky" as a Chambers, but reasonably good. 

Thanks for all your descriptions of your approaches. I  will try the light weight oil and see how that works.

[jerrywh]

 I usually put about 1/8" of ATF on top of room temp water.  From what you said that frizzen sounds like it was cracked
when you got it. 

[LRB]

  10xx steels, especially 1095 require a very fast cooling quench to get to, or approach max hardness. In heat treating knives, this is critical for the best performance. To get good sparks from a frizzen, maybe not so much. I don't know, but motor oil, ATF will not do for HTing 1095 blades. The only quench that will get 1095 to max is brine. The next best with less chance of cracking is Parks #50 oil. #3 in line is warmed canola oil. What Jerry does also works pretty well. Here are the facts with 1095. To get max hard, 1095 must cool from about 1475° to under 900°/1000° in .6 of one second. Only brine will do that, but the risk of cracking is a factor that must be considered. For frizzens, this is probably not necessary for good sparks, As Jerry pointed out, tempering is a must. Jim Chambers recommends a 375° temper, and that is about right. In my experience, I have found some locks prefer closer to 400°. And the tail area should be tempered even more as Jerry said. Turn the area behind the frizzen face plate light blue or dark blue. If you water quench, do it with brine. Water is more likely to crack the steel than is brine, and brine cools even faster. Temper as soon as the piece reaches ambient temperature, or cool enough to hold bare handed, or it may crack just sitting on your work bench.

[KLMoors]

Wick, for a brine, I've found one pound of salt to 1.33 gallons of water as a recipe on the net. Does this sound about right?  I'll give that a shot if I can't get the oil to work.

[jerrywh]

 You can get a frizzen too hard to work well. I always draw mine some.

[LRB]

Wick, for a brine, I've found one pound of salt to 1.33 gallons of water as a recipe on the net. Does this sound about right?  I'll give that a shot if I can't get the oil to work.

  A common 26oz box of salt will make two gallons of brine for quenching. I use sea salt or Kosher. That is roughly a 9 to 10% solution. One gallon should be plenty for your needs. Too much salt will hinder the process. I warm mine to about 100° to 110°. Can't say if that helps, but does no harm. It would be best to have your oven pre-heated to 375° using a separate oven thermometer. Put the frizzen in the oven as soon as it is cool enough to handle. Cook at that temp for an hour. Bear in mind, if your frizzen is not 1095, the brine may destroy it. Only a few of the higher alloyed steels will tolerate a brine quench, and not all frizzens are 1095. A quench in canola oil heated to about 130° would be much less risky, and will get 1095 plenty hard enough. Any of the common cooking oils will work, it's just that testing shows canola to be slightly faster than the others. And again, Jerry is right about tempering one too hard. Not only may it be brittle, but your lock may not like the sparks from it. A really hard frizzen will throw white and yellow sparks, and usually a lot of them, but they are small, and burn out fast. If your lock throws bright red-orange sparks, they are larger and last longer in flight. If you start out a tad too hard, you can always re-temper at a slightly higher temper heat. Say, maybe 10° increments, but at some point you could go too far and have to start all over again. Here is a tip on the heat for the steel to be quenched at, if you can put it to use. Table salt melts at 1474°, which is a perfect heat range for most all high carbon steels to be quenched at.

[KLMoors]

Great stuff.  Thanks Wick.  I'll double check the steel with L & R.

[Stophel]

I have never had success sufficiently hardening a frizzen with oil.  Any oil.  Heated oil.  Doesn't matter.  So, I soak it in Kasenit, and hold at heat as long as I can stand it, keeping the Kasenit heavy on the part, then quench in dirty hot water in an old pot kept in the shop full of whatever dust and grime lands in it.  The Kasenit comes off with a very satisfying "POP", and the surface is rock hard, and I have never, ever, ever had a crack.

Yes, I draw them down blue/purple on the tail of the frizzen, right up to the bend.  I lay the frizzen face down on the anvil as a sink, and I can even heat the front surface of the frizzen upright to a straw color as a stress-relief (real or imagined) and the frizzen face remains fully hard.   

[Bob Roller]

I have never had success sufficiently hardening a frizzen with oil.  Any oil.  Heated oil.  Doesn't matter.  So, I soak it in Kasenit, and hold at heat as long as I can stand it, keeping the Kasenit heavy on the part, then quench in dirty hot water in an old pot kept in the shop full of whatever dust and grime lands in it.  The Kasenit comes off with a very satisfying "POP", and the surface is rock hard, and I have never, ever, ever had a crack.

Yes, I draw them down blue/purple on the tail of the frizzen, right up to the bend.  I lay the frizzen face down on the anvil as a sink, and I can even heat the front surface of the frizzen upright to a straw color as a stress-relief (real or imagined) and the frizzen face remains fully hard.   

I have flintlocks in use in Germany for 35 years and all of them were boosted with Kasenit and oil hardened.
The bearing steel these were made from probably wouldn't like water hardening whether or not the water was
clean or dirty.I am making one of these locks for a personal project and will see about water hardening because
I have a few extra frizzens.

Bob Roller

[jerrywh]

 What Bob is doing is case hardening the frizzens with Kasenite and quenching in oil.  When I finish a lock I pack harden the lock including the frizzen and quench at 1450 to 1500. This is basically the same thing as Bob is doing by a different method. I even case harden frizzens made of 1095. Then I temper them to 350. I believe that the increased carbon content of the steel causes more sparks because carbon burns. In conducting spark experiments I took plain iron grinding and sprinkled them in a flame to see how they burned. I did the same thing high carbon steel filings and it seems as though the steel burns better or explodes so to speak. The more carbon the more explosive the powder seemed to be.  This is only a observation of mine. True or not I am not sure but That was my determination. When hardening with a torch I use potassium ferrocyanide the same way Bob uses Kasenit and quench in water with about 1'8" of ATF on top. The oil brakes the shock effect and prevents cracking.

[T*O*F]

Another thing to consider if you are concerned about cracking the shoe or around the hole.
Mount your frizzen in your vise so the jaws are around the offending area.
Put your quench directly below your vise.
Heat the frizzen to the desired temperature and immediately loosen the jaws.
The frizzen will drop into the quench. 
The vise acts as a heat sink so only the face of the frizzen is hardened.  This is known as differential hardening.

[LRB]

   Sounds good as a first thought. However, if the entire frizzen is hardened, then differentially 'tempered', the frizzen toe section will be much more wear resistant, and stronger.

[KLMoors]

I just heard back from L&R and their frizzens are the 52100 bearing steel that Bob mentioned.  I am going to try Bob's method  this weekend and I'll let you know how it goes.  Thanks again for all the great information.

[KLMoors]

I used Bob's method with the Kasenit. I quenched in 5W - 30 oil and it worked fine. Sparks fine.  I got it pretty hot - bright orange to my eyes, and let the Kasenit bubble for a few minutes.  I did this twice before putting it back on the lock and trying it. Oh, I also cleaned it up and drew back the lower sections to straw color.  They were held in my vice while heating, so I am not sure how hot they got, but I figured tempering wouldn't hurt.

I think I'll go out tomorrow and pattern both barrels.

Thanks all.

Ken Moors