200yd offhand shoot

[yip]

 what size target do you guys suggest for 200 yd offhand match? plus how many rounds per relay?

[SCLoyalist]

Here are 3 or 4 possibilities to consider:

A paper target based on the  NMLRA 200 yard metallic silhouette target:  A standing bear, rough dimensions 13" wide by 35" high

The NMLRA bullseye target for 200 yds,   a 12" diameter black 8 ring, 20" diameter 6 ring

The NMLRA 200 yd musket bullseye target:  8 ring(black) of 16", 6 ring of 24" diameter

or,  do a search for 200 yard offhand here on the ALR and you'll find some references to a 200 yard challenge where the target was described as:     22" x 28" with 5" White Bullseye, 12" Black Inner, and remaining area White Outer.    Look hard enough and you'll likely find a picture of it as well.

Patched roundball at 200 yards isn't as impossible as it sounds, but you have to have a really flexible mental attitude with respect to your sight picture if you're shooting fixed iron sights, and it takes some experimentation and practice to learn what the sight picture needs to be.  (Let me caveat that:  25 years ago when I used to shoot BP silhouette it wasn't that impossible; it may be pretty difficult now.)   As to number of shots in a relay,  I'd probably go with 10 shots in two consecutive relays, or else 5 shots in one relay.  If the shooting is to be done standing offhand, I'd make it 10 shots.  If "any military position" (i.e. kneeling, sitting, standing provided the gun is only supported by shooter's hands) 5 shots.

[bob in the woods]

We did a lot of shooting at 200 yds.  Most used a .54 cal [ round ball].    Standard NMLRA 200 yd target.
AMP [ any military position ]   7 shots…count the best 5 for score.   

[Daryl]

or,  do a search for 200 yard offhand here on the ALR and you'll find some references to a 200 yard challenge where the target was described as:     22" x 28" with 5" White Bullseye, 12" Black Inner, and remaining area White Outer.    Look hard enough and you'll likely find a picture of it as well.

Taylor and I did this one year - and as a result, Taylor built a .62 S. Hawken for subsequent 200yard "contests". Since we and George were the only competitors, the shoot failed.  It does need to be resurrected, however, it needs people who actually shoot.  We did not do well, actually shot poorly, however we did post our scores with pictures - BTW - the 14 bore won even though I put one shot on the sighter target by mistake, but only lost 1 point - it was only an "Outer".

This picture was taken by Taylor when we shot "The Match"- shown is one of my Offhand Shots. It kicks a bit. Yes- PAST shoulder protector underneath the jacket - fun to shoot - looks it doesn't it? 140gr. 2F GOEX + .030" denim + .682" PL ball of 482gr.

[gunmaker]

If your only interested in hit's, a small oxygen cyl. hung from a chain will really ring, no doubt about strikes....And no walking back & forth to score.....Tom

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Metal targets are truly fun and rewarding to shoot at.  But they have a huge "X" ring!  Shooting paper really tells the story on how you are truly shooting.  I find it humbling.

[yip]

  we shoot at Clairton sportsmen club the 200 yd range has cycling targets so we have a relay on the firing line and one in the pits. we shot Sunday the 3rd and used a I.S.S.A. target with  orange centers of 12"center and scoring rings out to 17 points, fellas didn't like these much. hope the next shoot improves with bigger targets, maybe we'll try N.R.A 300 yd high power rifle targets next time. i'll call NMLRA  and see what they have...........yip

[old george]

Getting so I have trouble just seeing 200yds 

geo

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

At the risk of overstating the obvious, if you cannot see it, you cannot hit it.  Those rectangular targets we used in the 200 yd. match were alright for visibility.  That one has a 12" black square with a 5" white centre.

[smylee grouch]

One of my old hunting partners used to say that he had to look twice to see that far.   

[smokinbuck]

Daryl,
That's not recoil, that's a horizontal trip hammer !!
Mark

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I wonder if THAT has anything to do with shoulder issues?

[Telgan]

Just like a bad chiropractic adjustment ...

[yip]

   we guys of POWDER PATCH AND BALL also shoot a 200 meter bucket target, toughly 12" by 14" metal hanger. its really challenging, surprisingly we have guys that hit it not once but twice in a row. dem guys is shooters!..............yip

[Daryl]

Before the provincial firearms officers reduced our in-town (barely in town) range from 300 meters to 200meters, we had a 2foot or 3foot diameter round steel plate hanging at 300meters during our BP rendezvous. My 14 bore has rarely missed that gong - no matter who was shooting it - myself, Taylor, LB or Neil H. we all hit with our first shots with my .69 cal. rifle.  Of course, having a flip-up leaf sight  filed expressly for shooting that gong, made the hitting fairly easy.  The guys usually never fired twice, though. Look at the picture of full recoil and see why. An accurate ML will do it, if the ball is steered correctly. The charge for that gong and for moose hunting then, was 165gr. 2f GOEX - not the reduced load of 140gr. I was firing in the picture.

[yip]

  Daryl: that's a good sized load, i'm glad i didn't shoot that. 300 meters that's mighty far out there..............yip

[Molly]

Pretty amazing shooting, I'd say.  I just started at 100 yards two weeks ago.  40 cal with 70 grains on the first shot.  Just hit the upper outer edge of the standard sized paper plate (sprayed blaze orange).  Second shot was with 45 grains.  Point of aim on both was 12:00.  The second round hit near center but off to the right.  This was at the end of that day's shooting and given the results I quit and went home.  We have a 200 yard line but I'm not ready for it yet.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Molly:  you will be surprised and delighted how well you will do, if you select a target you can see.  You will learn how to hold your rifle and it's sights within a short length of time, and after that, will have some fun.  A metal clanger is very satisfying, and has a big 'X' ring.

[Bob Roller]

Before the provincial firearms officers reduced our in-town (barely in town) range from 300 meters to 200meters, we had a 2foot or 3foot diameter round steel plate hanging at 300meters during our BP rendezvous. My 14 bore has rarely missed that gong - no matter who was shooting it - myself, Taylor, LB or Neil H. we all hit with our first shots with my .69 cal. rifle.  Of course, having a flip-up leaf sight  filed expressly for shooting that gong, made the hitting fairly easy.  The guys usually never fired twice, though. Look at the picture of full recoil and see why. An accurate ML will do it, if the ball is steered correctly. The charge for that gong and for moose hunting then, was 165gr. 2f GOEX - not the reduced load of 140gr. I was firing in the picture.

Over 40 years ago a group of us got together and contributed parts and labor to have a 69 caliber "Flintlock Hawken" made for John Baird who was one of the authors of two books on the Hawken rifles.I shot this at Friendship on the primitive range with 160 grains of DuPont 2fg and the felt recoil was more of a push back than a sharp punch. I don't recall the maker of the rifle but I did donate a set trigger and Tom Dawson a restored lock,Bill Large a barrel and the rest is
I missed my only chance to fire a .600 Nitro Express double rifle at Friendship in 1954 on my first trip to the NMLRA Spring Shoot. There was only a foot bridge crossing Laughery Creek then and some guys were blowing large carp out of the water with this old fashioned elephant gun.I told the owner that I'd fire it offhand and level but NOT leaning over the rail of that bridge.Too far from home to risk a cracked collar bone so I didn't join the fish kill.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Bob - I remember that rifle - full stocked flinter and also the friendly banter about it - including the cartoon of the Buckskinner holding a little squirrel with a HUGE hole through it, hardly anything left, saying: "Heavens", "I fear the .69 is a bit big, if squirrels are the intended fare". or something to that effect.

I especially liked the one of the neophite asking a bunch of buckskinners in costume "Do you fellows shoot TC's around here?"- the ":buckskinner said, "Sure - just hold her like so"  with another buckskinner putting a ball through it's stock.   MAN that drew some flack! I thouht it was funny and I'd only upgraded from owning a TC for maybe 2 or 3 years back then. Great bunch of guys.

[bob in the woods]

Proper design is necessary to handle the larger charges. My 10 bore is very manageable with it's goose load of 120 gr FFg and 1 1/2 volume of shot.  Bear load is 140 gr FFg and round ball.  One thing I learned, and it's been repeated by many others…..none of us are immune to recoil.  It's a price you pay.  One weekend on the long range [ 800-1000 yards ] line,
shooting prone  was enough for me to buy a PAST recoil shield.   My scores went down as the weekend progressed, and sure enough….I figured out that after 150 plus rounds of 100 gr powder and a 535 gr PP bullet, I had developed a perceptible flinch.
At 62, I notice recoil more than I used to in my younger days.  Unless there is a definite benefit from larger charge, i.e. hunting
I now use the lesser accuracy retaining charges if shooting gongs or paper.  An example is :  I found that 80 gr of powder under a patched RB in my .54 cal target rifle will do pretty much everything that my old 100 gr load would do. The difference in susceptibility to wind is negligible.  

[Bob Roller]

Bob - I remember that rifle - full stocked flinter and also the friendly banter about it - including the cartoon of the Buckskinner holding a little squirrel with a HUGE hole through it, hardly anything left, saying: "Heavens", "I fear the .69 is a bit big, if squirrels are the intended fare". or something to that effect.

I especially liked the one of the neophite asking a bunch of buckskinners in costume "Do you fellows shoot TC's around here?"- the ":buckskinner said, "Sure - just hold her like so"  with another buckskinner putting a ball through it's stock.   MAN that drew some flack! I thouht it was funny and I'd only upgraded from owning a TC for maybe 2 or 3 years back then. Great bunch of guys.

John Baird passed away several years ago and I wonder what became of that rifle. I think it was called "Bodacious". His widow told me was afflicted with something called Loewy Body Disease and
that it combined all the horrible traits of Alzheimers-ALS and a third nightmare that I can't remember the name for.
He knew nothing about aircraft but was said to have built a home made one with some kind of Mercedes-Benz engine. I don't know if it ever flew or not. She also said he got in his truck to do a short errand and a Maryland State Trooper found him asleep in a park and he had no idea where he was or how he got there.
A sad end to a rather interesting life.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Proper design is necessary to handle the larger charges. My 10 bore is very manageable with it's goose load of 120 gr FFg and 1 1/2 volume of shot.  Bear load is 140 gr FFg and round ball.  One thing I learned, and it's been repeated by many others…..none of us are immune to recoil.  It's a price you pay.  One weekend on the long range [ 800-1000 yards ] line,
shooting prone  was enough for me to buy a PAST recoil shield.   My scores went down as the weekend progressed, and sure enough….I figured out that after 150 plus rounds of 100 gr powder and a 535 gr PP bullet, I had developed a perceptible flinch.
At 62, I notice recoil more than I used to in my younger days.  Unless there is a definite benefit from larger charge, i.e. hunting
I now use the lesser accuracy retaining charges if shooting gongs or paper.  An example is :  I found that 80 gr of powder under a patched RB in my .54 cal target rifle will do pretty much everything that my old 100 gr load would do. The difference in susceptibility to wind is negligible.  

Bob,
At age 79 I want nothing to do with a 45-100-535 even in the 16 pound guns. I don't quite understand the need for 100-110 or 120 grains of powder for long range. The old trapdoor Springfield with a 500 (actually 525) grain bullet and 70 grains of Fg bested the legendary 577-450-485 at every distance at field trials on a beach
in New Jersey I think. Sandy Hook? Some of the distances were extreme and the old Springfield still carried the day. I KNOW the powder makers approve of the 100+grain loads but that must be the only reason.

Bob Roller

[Candle Snuffer]

Here's a link, Yip

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=28771.msg274714#msg274714

[Daryl]

It would be fun- to resurrect this match.

I'm in - I know Taylor will, some more of our guys if pressured -

Any others who will join from this forum?