Historically correct metal finish for about 1810?

[Hemo]

I'm getting near the end of my latest build, a Berks County style golden-age type rifle. On my last two projects, the question of metal finish was easy since one was a wheellock circa 1690, the other a horse pistol circa 1720. I just polished the barrels and locks bright and left them. On this rifle, the look I'm going for is a somewhat used but not abused longrifle from around 1810.  I'm thinking about rust bluing the barrel, but not sure whether the lock and trigger should be left bright, rust blued, browned, or whatever. Brass mounts and patchbox are going to get a light going-over with brass black to add some age.  What do people think about the steel parts?

Gregg

[E.vonAschwege]

Historically for around 1810, you're looking at bright or charcoal blue for the barrel, and case-hardened bright everything else.  I believe rust bluing didn't come about until the 1830s or 40s.  Every original I've taken apart (Not many, mind you) has been bright in the barrel channel.  If you want to take the harshness away from bright steel parts, a coat of aqaufortis, mustard, or other mild acid, left on for a few minutes and wiped off, will dull the finish.  You can also brown it lightly and rub it back.  The locks were case hardened and polished bright.  I like the dull grey that case hardening can give, and usually shoot for that.  Just some thoughts,
-Eric

[jerrywh]

 Actually Nicolas Boutet of Versailles was rust bluing in that era but I doubt if it was ever done in an American long rifle at least on purpose.

[JTR]

Well no one else has replied, so I feel inclined to say, at least in my experience, charcoal blue is more of an 1840/60 finish. And again, in my experience relatively rare on a Kentucky rifle. I owned one with a good bit of charcoal blue remaining on the barrel, signed WW, and probably made about 1850, out of the 50 or so rifles I've owned since 1980. And currently I have a original percussion Hawk rifle with what looks like might have been charcoal blue on the barrel.

By rust blue, if you mean doing a rust brown then boiling it to turn the color black, I haven't seen that either.

The underside of the barrel being uncolored is correct as is the inside of the barrel channel, but at this point in time, both areas are going to have some color/rust/staining.
As for the top surfaces of the barrel, it's hard to say what was there originally, as almost all have varying degrees of brown now. From what I've seen on the guns I've had apart, and that would be a considerable number, I think the gun left the maker with either a light rust brown or maybe a darkish French grey on the iron.

Lock plates seem to be generally case hardened grey, but from what I see not to a bright luster, more of a dull grey. Or a light rust brown finish. Remember for the most part these old guys were hunters, and then as now, a bright shiny thing isn't going to help with procuring dinner. Although it was great for the military to show off and try to frighten the enemy, or deer, or squirrels!

Just my 2 bits,
John

[jerrywh]

Charcoal bluing was done in Europe since the 17th century and in America in the 18th century if not before.  This can be proven beyond  a doubt.

[JTR]

Jerry, I didn't say it wasn't.
I just said I haven't seen it used on Kentucky rifles at the 1810 time period.
They were also gold plating at an early date too, but I've never seen a gold plated Kentucky either.

The original post asked what finish one might expect to see on an 1810 Berks County rifle and I gave him my answer. You don't have to agree.

John

[Mark Elliott]

John,

In my limited experience, I have seen a number of iron mounted flint guns from VA and TN that had remnants of charcoal blue on various components.    Wallace Gusler, who has been studying Virginia,  in particular, and southern guns, in general, for over 40 years has seen and described in print, evidence of many guns having been charcoal blued.    It seems to be part and parcel of the "black gun" popular in western VA during the late 18th and early 19th century.  There are also newspaper ads from the 18th century offering blued barrels.   Enough evidence had come to light that the gun shop at Colonial Williamsburg switched to charcoal bluing barrels many years ago.    The weight of accumulated historical evidence would seem to support that charcoal bluing was common in 18th century America.   That and armory bright were probably the most common iron treatments for most of the flint period.     If you have proof to the contrary,  I think we would all be eager to hear it.



       

[JTR]

Mark, I thought the original guy was asking about Berks County PA? I guess I wasn't aware that Berks was in VA or TN?
None the less, I'm not a scholar nor an academic, just a guy that has looked at and handled probably several thousand PA rifles over the years, and haven't seen many charcoal blued barrels. Proof to me is what has passed through my hands.
I'll leave it at that and let you guys carry on.....
John

[Mark Elliott]

You have a point.   I have not seen 1810 Berks Co rifles with charcoal blue. 

[jerrywh]

JTR.
   Excuse me, Don't shoot.  Charcoal bluing was done in Pennsylvania in  the 1700 and 1800's I can't testify as to what county or city.  I got that information from Gary Brumfield.

[Hemo]

Thanks to all for your replies. It looks like rust bluing is not the way to go. Charcoal bluing, maybe, although I don't have the materials to do that, and frankly, don't want this barrel to be my first experiment.

I did a search for aging iron, and found a technique posted by Mike Brooks some time ago using liquid blue solution and tincture of iodine applied while the blue is still wet, leaving the solution on overnight. I gave this a try, using some BC Super Blue liquid and some tincture of iodine from the drugstore. After leaving overnight outside in the damp weather, I had a nice funky red coat on the barrel this morning. After going over it with OOOO steel wool and a gray Scotch Brite pad, I had a fairly nice glossy subdued gray with faint overtones of brown. Not bad looking, and a lot faster than rust bluing or charcoal bluing. I believe I'll give it another application, and see how it looks with oil or wax on top.

Gregg

[rich pierce]

They all seem to get brown on the exposed flats over time. If bright in the barrel channel then they were bright all over when new, methinks.

[Mark Elliott]

Rich,

I think the same.   If I was making a brass mounted rifle "as new", I would leave it bright and let it age naturally.   I believe an "as new" iron mounted gun should be charcoal blue (barrel and mounts).    I recently saw an iron mounted flint pistol that had a blued lock plate.   It looked like a charcoal blue.   It could be that it was case hardened with just hard wood charcoal.  It is the only original lock I ever saw that was blued.   I believe most locks were case hardened and polished bright "as new".

   

[Marcruger]

I am not sure which of my NC longrifles books has it (perhaps Bivins) but there is a period gunsmithing ad that list brown and blue finishing. I had long pondered whether both were available at the same time, and that settled it in my mind. If I recall correctly, the ad was early 1800's. Best wishes, Marc

[B Shipman]

Not necessarily. Chuck Dixon theorized a long time ago that the brown on the barrel might be obtained using the same solution that colored the stock. With the barrel in the stock. Based on pristine rifles. Gary Brumfeld also had an add advertising a brown finish about 1780. And there are orders for rifles with brown barrels documented as well in later periods.  I think the answer is that what was available might have been used and some things were more popular in one region than another but nothing was exclusive.

[Mad Monk]

Not necessarily. Chuck Dixon theorized a long time ago that the brown on the barrel might be obtained using the same solution that colored the stock. With the barrel in the stock. Based on pristine rifles. Gary Brumfeld also had an add advertising a brown finish about 1780. And there are orders for rifles with brown barrels documented as well in later periods.  I think the answer is that what was available might have been used and some things were more popular in one region than another but nothing was exclusive.

Regarding Berks County rifles.

Hundreds of originals went through the hands of Chuck Dixon over the years.  He pulled apart a good many of them for a close look at how well they had originally been put together.
Generally.  They were either sold "in the white" and browned over time or were browned by the builder.
If you look at information out of Hall's Rifles they remarked that they normally sold their guns in the white, noting that they would generally brown quickly in use, or you could pay an additional fee to have it browned.

When I had first started to work on the "nitrate of iron" stock stain I was using large old bolts free from the old hardware store.  Wire brush any crud off of them and place them into the beaker with the nitric acid.  I had noted that after I removed them from the acid and left them sit in the open they would develop a very fine brown film that was rather adherent.  If given a coat or two of raw linseed oil they looked like a well browned barrel.

Then I read in R. H. Angiers "Firearm Blueing and Browning" that ferric nitrate (nitrate of iron" had once been used to brown barrels.  But no explanation why that stopped.
Then I did some experimented with pure charcoal wrought iron from an old barn being torn down.  If swabbed with the nitrate of iron it would brown nicely.  But when I switched over to what is now mild steel, as in our barrels, the nitrate of iron would not give a good durable brown.  That explained why its use ceased by mid-1800s.  We see steel barrels coming in from England around the 1820s and 1830s. 

With one of the Schimmels I built for a friend I browned the stock with my strong ferric nitrate solution and had the barrel mounted in the stock.  The barrel browned at the same time the stock was stained.  Took it up to Chuck and showed him the results.  He had commented that he had seen originals where the barrels had been done in the white and browned with age.  A sort of blotchy brown.  But then with some it was clear the barrels had been browned.  Too uniform for simple after rusting.  And he had never seen an original where the browning went below the stock line.

Mad Monk

[Mad Monk]

To expand a bit on my previous post.

Angiers also mentions Sal ammoniac having been used as a browning chemical on gun barrels.  We now know it as ammonium chloride.  Purchased as a granular powder.  As a 5% solution in water.  Cleaned the barrel.  Swabbed on the ammonium chloride solution and stood the barrel in the back corner of the basement.  Four hours later it had a heavy coat of rust.  Then brushed lightly and done again.  This gives a somewhat coarse grain rusting.  If the humidity is too high it will get black and not adhere to the metal.

One source claimed that "stale horse urine" had once been used to brown barrels in England.  Suggesting that the early models of the Brown Bess had been done that way.
In looking at the chemistry involved.  The so-called stale horse urine was rich in ammonium chloride.  Chloride salts from the animal and bacteria working on the protein to produce ammonia as the urine aged.
When my wife's uncle had his farm near Myerstown, PA he had a large barn.  A few cattle and a few ponies for the grandchildren to ride.  My wife and I would go up to the farm.  I then helped manure out the stables.  But the feeder bar and chains never worked on the manure spreader because they corroded so quickly.  So my job was to stand in the back with a pitchfork and heave it out onto the fields.  But those adventures gave me an appreciation for just how corrosive ammonium chloride could be.  The spreader chains and bars had a brown on it that would be the envy of most ml gun builders.

When you look at all of the various "rust brown" products they are usually some form of a chloride.


To digress a bit more.
When working with the ferric nitrate on old wrought iron I picked up on something in local historical writings.  A well know Northern Berks County blacksmith was noted for his wrought iron fat lamps with wrought iron trivets.  You could purchase them with a black paint on them or as an "antique brass" finish.  The article mentioned he used "nitrate of copper" to do this antique brass finish.
So I dipped some old pure wrought iron into my nitrate of iron stock stain supply.  Pulled it a few hours later.  After some exposure to the air it looked just like aged brass.  But when I tried it with some modern mild steel it would not work.  Same as the barrel browning project.


Mad Monk

[Hemo]

Wow, very interesting! I can see how aquafortis applied to a stock with the barrel in place could produce a brown just to the level of the stock, bright below the stock edge. Of course, the ravages of time and atmosphere could do the same thing after a couple of centuries, so without some written records it would be hard to make a case for this being a typical technique.

As an aside, I had an experience leaving a bottle Wahkon Bay aquafortis sitting on my bench next to a nice  bright set of chisels and gouges in a canvas roll. Even with the cap on the aquafortis (okay, maybe it was a little loose?), the fumes caused  the canvas roll to deteriorate and fall apart next to  the bottle, and the  tools inside developed patchy areas of fine powdery red-brown rust--an unintended and unwelcome browning job, especially where it involved the cutting edges.

I store my aquafortis bottle well away from bright metal now.

Gregg

[Mad Monk]

As an aside, I had an experience leaving a bottle Wahkon Bay aquafortis sitting on my bench next to a nice  bright set of chisels and gouges in a canvas roll. Even with the cap on the aquafortis (okay, maybe it was a little loose?), the fumes caused  the canvas roll to deteriorate and fall apart next to  the bottle, and the  tools inside developed patchy areas of fine powdery red-brown rust--an unintended and unwelcome browning job, especially where it involved the cutting edges.

I store my aquafortis bottle well away from bright metal now.

Gregg

Been there and done that long time ago.
When I started my nitrate of iron work I had little info to go on other than what I had read in Cal Hetrick's book on Bedford County gunsmiths.
Took me a bit of time to realize that the strong nitrate of iron stain solution slowly gives off lower oxides of nitrogen fumes.  Had tools rust brown fairly quickly on the work bench.  So I stored the bottle in my paint cabinet.  Then one day I came home from work only to find a somewhat angry wife.  Turns out that while I was at work the pint bottle of stain solution blew up in the cabinet.  I sealed the jar too tight.  The gas pressure built up to the point where they bottle broke.  Then the stain solution ran out of the cabinet and onto the cement basement floor.  The residual acid then attacked the cement.  Bubbling.  So she poured two big bags of kitty litter onto it.  So after work I had to scoop all of that up.  The cement floor had a big red stain after that.  Looked like a murder scene.  After that the stain solution bottle sat in the shed out back.

Mad Monk

[Mad Monk]

Wow, very interesting! I can see how aquafortis applied to a stock with the barrel in place could produce a brown just to the level of the stock, bright below the stock edge. Of course, the ravages of time and atmosphere could do the same thing after a couple of centuries, so without some written records it would be hard to make a case for this being a typical technique.

Gregg

To put some perspective on this.

At that time Chuck Dixon used to talk about the modern ml rifle builders and how many hours it takes one to built a decent rifle.  I have joked with some that given the basic costs and the numbers of hours put into the gun they were working for minimum wage at best.  Chuck's idea was that the old builders would work out ways to get the job done quickly while keeping the appearance and "quality" acceptable.  So how could we see if they had developed any techniques to minimize time and labor.  When you look very closely at a lot of the originals you see the original gunsmiths did not work to the standards of finish that most do today.

Mad Monk