Author Topic: Question for Herb or others (Read 14249 times)

Whaleman · « **on:** May 10, 2015, 07:34:54 PM »

Herb, I bought a very fine grade 5 stock from one of the major suppliers. Waited 5 months for them to find a nice piece. I am very happy with the striping even if it is not as HC as you perfer. They routed in the ovals for the wedge disks. It seems like they are both too far forward. Every picture I see shows the front oval being farther rearward. Did they make a mistake or am I mistaken? Dan

whitebear · « **Reply #1 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:00:39 PM »

To me it looks about like it should. Some that I have seen have both much farther forward than yours.

Whaleman · « **Reply #2 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:09:18 PM »

Thanks. I was comparing to pictures such as this. Dan

Whaleman · « **Reply #3 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:16:55 PM »

An

other.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #4 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:29:26 PM »

In that the original's were all hand made, there was almost always some variance between rifles.

FALout · « **Reply #5 on:** May 10, 2015, 08:53:53 PM »

Somewhere,here in the archives theres some pics of Hawkens, many of them together. It is easy to see how they did not have the barrel tenons all in the same place, especially when the barrels were longer then "normal". Since they are already in place, keep on working and not worry about it

Joe S. · « **Reply #6 on:** May 10, 2015, 09:27:13 PM »

no use tying yourself in a knot over something you can't change.Be a shame to waste a nice piece of wood like that,should finish real nice.

Herb · « **Reply #7 on:** May 10, 2015, 09:46:13 PM »

You have gotten some good answers. In Jim Gordon's book "Great Gunmakers for the Early West, Part III" I found 16 half-stock Hawkens that have the front key escutcheon at least as far forward as yours is, some further. From somewhere, I don't remember where, I have a picture of Kit Carson's Hawken and another Hawken. This second Hawken also has the escutcheon centered forward of the rear of the entry pipe skirt, so that is 17 of them.

Herb · « **Reply #8 on:** May 10, 2015, 10:01:19 PM »

Here are some of Jim Gordon's Hawkens in his museum in Glorieta, NM. You can enlarge this on your screen by holding down Control and hitting the plus sign. From the top down, on numbers 1, 4, 5, 6, 9 and 10 the escutcheons are forward of center of the entry pipe skirt.

Chuck Burrows · « **Reply #9 on:** May 11, 2015, 01:18:26 AM »

As noted the barrel key position on original Hawken Bros mtn rifles varies quite a bit. This especially true of the earlier J & S Hawken rifles of pre-1849. The later mtn rifles as made by Sam and those who came after such as Gemmer (such as the image you posted above) were built more to a standard pattern.

Here's an example or two of a J & S compared to a later Sam piece the Bridger rifle

close up of front key position - compare to Bridger Hawken below:

close up of front key position - compare to J & S above - this is also close to the setup on your pre-carve:

Also note the way the rear ramrod pipe is attached. On the J & S Hawken they used a pin (usually two) to hold it in place. On later Sam Hawken rifles the rear pipe may be attached by one pin or a screw from the barrel channel into the top of the pipe.

IMO It's the small details like this that need to be taken into consideration when building any rifle let alone a copy of a Hawken with it's similarities as well as it's differences. Also why I prefer working from a blank rather than a pre-carve.....

Herb · « **Reply #10 on:** May 11, 2015, 05:49:26 AM »

The J&S Hawken I photographed at the Helena Museum has one pin holding the entry pipe, shown here. A similar one at the BBHC has two.

Whaleman · « **Reply #11 on:** May 11, 2015, 05:58:37 AM »

I would like to thank everyone for the replies. I will not worry about it anymore. Dan

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #12 on:** May 11, 2015, 06:56:29 PM »

Be sure to take the wood down so the escutcheon plates are flush with the wood. Your precarved stock will be considerably 'fatter' than it should be when finished.

Whaleman · « **Reply #13 on:** May 11, 2015, 07:10:29 PM »

Thank You. I will just kind of getting everything fitted up. The routing for the oval plates was so perfect and clean and only just a little tight that I actually just had to file a draft on the plates and just touch the edges with a file to fit very tight. Dan

Whaleman · « **Reply #14 on:** May 11, 2015, 07:32:13 PM »

I had to show the rest of the stock. I wish my photo would have been better. Dan

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #15 on:** May 12, 2015, 04:35:11 AM »

The cheek piece is a little too 'ample'. The rear edge should not end up going straight up, but continue the arc so that it scoots forward a bit. It fills the butt stock area a little too 'fully' too. As well, try to remove wood to flatten it. It IS a nice piece of maple.

Here is one example of an original.

,...and another

Whaleman · « **Reply #16 on:** May 12, 2015, 04:09:42 PM »

Thank you for this input. It is appreciated very much. Dan

haddockkl · « **Reply #17 on:** June 01, 2015, 08:40:28 PM »

Quote from: Herb on May 10, 2015, 10:01:19 PM

Here are some of Jim Gordon's Hawkens in his museum in Glorieta, NM. You can enlarge this on your screen by holding down Control and hitting the plus sign. From the top down, on numbers 1, 4, 5, 6, 9 and 10 the escutcheons are forward of center of the entry pipe skirt.

Herb
Do you have any closer shots of the sixth rifle down, it appears not to have escutcheon plates .

louieparker · « **Reply #18 on:** June 01, 2015, 10:49:19 PM »

This rifle nor the Tom Tobin rifle have escutcheons. Can't remember if he has others without them or not. Maybe the Wagon Master rifle ..LP

PPatch · « **Reply #19 on:** June 02, 2015, 12:26:59 AM »

Those escutcheons on your rifle are nicely spaced and aesthetically pleasing. Go with it.

dave

Herb · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2015, 05:26:19 AM »

Haddockki, I have been back in Iowa and Wisconsin for two weeks, but some Hawkens were built without escutcheons. I don't have closer photos of this one, but I do have photos of Tom Tobin's rifle. He was an impressive person.

Herb · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2015, 07:02:49 AM »

I looked at my original photo of that rack of Hawkens and enlarged it to read the label. The text was blurred and I may not have the names correct, and if someone knows the correct name, please let us know. The label reads (as near as I can tell): "? Hawken, St. Louis- WM Van Vlear" Plains Rifle. 34 caliber, 35" barrel, may be "J&S"; Van Vlear was an early gunsmith in Stockton, California, made without escutcheons. See Bill Rehser's (?- HGT) article in Bulletin 39 of the ASAC "Artistry of the Hawken Family"; Jim Severn's (?- HGT) "Conquering the Frontiers", pages 66, 124 and 171; R.L. Wilson's "The Peacemakers" page 49 (Wilson calls it an S. Hawken rifle- HGT). and the CGCA GUN SHOW 2000" page 161 #2, also formerly in Kip Kapp Collection.

haddockkl · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2015, 09:01:01 PM »

Herb, thanks for taking a look and getting back with me. I have a .54 straiggt barreled project under way that I think will be omitting escutcheons. When I get done altering the trigger guard I'll post some pictures.

haddockkl · « **Reply #23 on:** July 25, 2015, 03:51:51 PM »

Before I start slapping varnish on it, this has been my progress, I have gotten some pointers from Don Stith that have gone a long way to correct my mistakes. I have recontoured the trigger guard and butt plate to bring them in line with an earlyish Hawken Brothers rifle.

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smylee grouch · « **Reply #24 on:** July 25, 2015, 04:03:24 PM »

You might want to consider putting a little tapper to the comb(thicker-rear,slimmer to the front end).

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Author Topic: Question for Herb or others (Read 14249 times)

Whaleman

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