Author Topic: Question for Herb or others  (Read 14250 times)

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2015, 04:40:53 PM »
I think you will find barrel key placement, depends on a couple of things. The wider spaced barrel keys  seem to appear more often on guns with longer barrels, and to a lesser degree on those of larger caliber.

     Hungry Horse

Offline haddockkl

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 73
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2015, 09:18:55 PM »
This has a 36in long .54 cal barrel, so the barrel keys are in roughly the right location.

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2015, 08:05:03 PM »
The cheek piece is a little too 'ample'.  The rear edge should not end up going straight up, but continue the arc so that it scoots forward a bit.

...with all due respect to Taylor here's another original, an 1840's J & S Hawken - never say never note the rear of the cheekpiece....



The early Hawken rifles in particular showed more of a variation in stock stylings including the cheekpiece than the later Sam Hawken's of post 1849 - IMO that's why it's imperative to decide what time period the Hawken you want to recreate, then look at as many from that era as possible, and if you really want to make one a bench top copy or close to it is the way to go whenever possible. Beaver tail cheek pieces were common on the Hawken half stocks whole on most full-stocks they used the so-called Tennessee cheek piece found on eastern made rifles of the period.

For instance here is the cheekpieces on the very early so-called Peterson rifle now in the Buffalo Bill Historical Society - IMO this shows Jake's influence since it's an almost direct copy of the M1814/1817 US Rifle's cheek piece.

http://collections.centerofthewest.org/treasures/view/firearm_rifle_jacob_and_samuel_hawken_st_louis_mo_j_s_hawken_half_stoc

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9691
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2015, 11:15:26 PM »

With hand made one of a kind guns similar patterns will come from repetitive work in one shop but to say there are absolutes is a bit risky.

Bob Roller
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 07:50:43 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2015, 07:21:51 PM »
Bob agreed - and the image of the "Peterson Rifle's" cheekpiece is actually a bench copy made by our old friend Tom Dawson.....
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #30 on: July 29, 2015, 07:41:42 PM »
Chuck:  those are certainly interesting images.  I am sure I've seen them before, but my mind rejects the rifles that might be termed deviant, in favor of the ones that appeal to me.  But you have brought up an important point.  Much appreciated.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Chuck Burrows

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1218
    • Wild Rose Trading Company
Re: Question for Herb or others
« Reply #31 on: July 29, 2015, 08:11:51 PM »
Taylor part of my point was the deviant rifles tend to be those made prior to the summer of 1849 when Sam took over the shop after Jake's death. Sam's rifles (and those that came later under new ownership) were the rifles that came closest to being a "cookie cutter" pattern, albeit most have the existing ones have minor variations in stock style, cheekpiece style (they can vary quite a bit), comb (generally come almost to a knife edge on J & S rifles whereas the same rifles are more rounded) and the metal fittings such as the butt plate that started out as being hand made, later a cast copy of that style was used, and still later another cast iron variant was used. IMO unfortunately(?) too many folks think of that as the premier Hawken style and don't realize that the J & S styles (the one's I'm most interested in although it was one of Sam's rifles that first sparked my interest in Hawken rifles back in 1962 when I saw my first one in a Guns magazine article - it's the same one that sold at auction a few years ago for $70K - still have the magazine somewhere), often with more major variations were those carried by the fur traders and mountain men.

BTW - the first picture I posted with the variant is from Baird's first book "Hawken Rifles"
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 08:19:11 PM by Chuck Burrows »
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.