Author Topic: Jim Bridger Rifle  (Read 13977 times)

Offline gibster

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Jim Bridger Rifle
« on: May 15, 2015, 12:27:14 AM »
While visiting a local Museum of Native American History, I saw this rifle displayed with a picture of Jim Bridger and the following information:

JIM BRIDGER’S RIFLE
Ca. 1822
This is believed to be Jim Bridger’s first rifle.  Bridger was among the foremost mountain men, trappers, scouts and guides who explored and trapped the western United States during the early 1800’s.  As an ally to native tribes he was sometimes called upon to be a mediator between them and encroaching whites.  Jim Bridger built this rifle when he served as an apprentice to the master gunsmith Philip Creamer from 1817 to 1822.  It was originally a .50 caliber flintlock but was later chanted to percussion, as many were.  This represents one of the earliest known Plains-style rifles.

I had the opportunity to go back and talk to the museum’s curator and discuss the rifle and take a few pictures and get some measurements.  Here are the measurements that I took:
LOP – 13-inches
Height of butt plate – 4.88-inches
Width of butt plate – 1.38-inches
Tang – 3.50-inches
Barrel – 43.125-inches
Breech – 0.99-inches
Waist – 0.939-inches
Muzzle – 0.959-inches
Bore – 0.482

According to Curt Johnson’s book, Gunmakers of Illinois, Vol. I. Curt writes that in 1817, Philip Creamer took a 13 year old boy as an apprentice "to learn the blacksmith's trade". Born in Richmond, Virginia on March 17, 1804, the youth would remain with Creamer for five years. He was none other than Jim Bridger, who would later become a legend as a mountain man and trapper. A voucher to agent Richard Graham from the United States Indian Agency, dated July 29, 1817, lists "James Bridger" as an assistant, beneath the name of "P. Creamer".

Additionally, Majorjoel (Joel) sent me the following: It does sound like you have run across the very rifle that has been described in the KRA brown book. That is the grouping of selected articles from the KRA bulletin (Volume 1-30).  In this book there is an article written about Philip Creamer's known life and work history that was put together by Daniel Hartzler. Hartzler lists several sources for his information along with the article. His Jim Bridger connections state: "Col. Grenville M. Dodge recorded that while on survey parties Jim Bridger related that he was born in Richmond, Virginia. In 1812 he came to the American Bottoms at Illinoistown and with the death of both parents in 1817, he was apprenticed to Philip Creamer. On Feb. 13, 1822, he went with Maj. Wiliam H. Ashley on his first expedition and became one of the most renowned mountain men. We have not seen any guns of Bridger using the knowledge he gained from Creamer's bench. After establishing Fort Bridger he had a forge but was only known to be a gun trader. A straight -grained maple rifle of Creamer's that was made on the frontier has survived.  The rifle is brass mounted but plain and has seen much use. It was originally in flint and has been converted to percussion and the lock apparently was replaced. The present lock is stamped "Fall and Cunningham Nashville Tenne." The 50 caliber swamped barrel is stamped "P. Creamer" on the top facet and the bottom of the forged barrel is crudely stamped " J.A.B.___ker" which is believed to read J.A.B. Maker. Research has not revealed any journeymen or other apprentices working for him in the West. If someone could find the middle initial of Bridger it would be exciting to know that he really participated in the manufacture of this rifle and others used by his compatriots in the shining mountains."  This is taken directly from KRA brown book page 273.   

The top flat of the barrel is lightly stamped P. Creamer. I tried to get a picture of it but I couldn’t read the signature in the picture.  We did not take the barrel out of the stock to see the stamping on the bottom flat.  The barrel is held to the stock with three wedges and it looks like the barrel was shortened about an inch at the breech, probably when converted to percussion. I also think that the barrel was originally held to the stock with pins, not wedges.  You can see in the pictures that there is a filled hole about an inch in front of the forward wedge and there is also one about the same distance in front of the rear wedge.  I couldn’t see where there was a filled hole at the center wedge.  The barrel has a slight swamp (see measurements) and shows what looks to be file marks on the flats. To me, the lock looks to be original to the rifle, but there is some wood replaced between the lock and the tang.  It is stamped “Fall and Cunningham Nashville Tenne.” I know that there is only one lock bolt, but I have no doubt that this rifle was originally flint.

I want to say thanks to Curt Johnson and Joel for the information that they sent me concerning Jim Bridger and his connection to Philip Creamer. I also want to thank the museum curator for allowing me to measure and take pictures of this rifle.  I have his permission to share this with the forum.  If there are any other measurements or areas that you would like additional pictures of, let me know and I will see if he will allow me access to the rifle to get them for you.





















Offline Topknot

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2015, 03:31:11 AM »
Gibster, Thank you for posting about the hawken and its history. Awesome!!!

                                     topknot
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 07:26:37 AM »
Hawken?  I see no Hawken! ???
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

1927modet

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 03:30:28 PM »
It looks like it has a repair like the one I just did by the lock....What do you think the dots by the sight is for?

greywolf

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2015, 08:08:18 PM »
Gibster, you made a great contribution to lots of us.

Maybe the dots were made by a punch to expand the base of the sight in the dovetail to avoid its moving sideways.

I bought a rifle with its front sight punched that way. I needed to install a wider sight so my old eyes could see it and had a tough time driving it out.

I noted that Hartzler's description of the barrel says that it was swamped. The measured dimensions show it to be tapered.

I once saw a rifle at Peterson's Gun Shop in Albuquerque that was supposedly a Bridger rifle.
It was an over and under style with two percussion locks. If it was his I would think it was used after he left the fur trade.

eddillon

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 08:48:00 PM »
I bought a rifle with its front sight punched that way. I needed to install a wider sight so my old eyes could see it and had a tough time driving it out.
I noted that Hartzler's description of the barrel says that it was swamped. The measured dimensions show it to be tapered.


It does appear swamped in these photos.  How are chances of a waist measurement?

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 10:24:00 PM »
Wow. What a piece of history.
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

Offline JTR

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 10:47:52 PM »
From the text above; Barrel – 43.125-inches
                               Breech – 0.99-inches
                               Waist – 0.939-inches
                               Muzzle – 0.959-inches

And certainly not a Hawken as Taylor mentioned, but then you wouldn't expect one from Creamer's shop.

Interesting rear sight, and I've seen a very similar one,,, someplace.....

John
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Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2015, 11:26:10 PM »
According to Wikipedia online, James Felix Bridger was born in Virginia in 1804.  I did a search hoping that his middle name would have been Amos or Andrew to prove that the barrel initials could have been better tied to our famous hero. Alas, all the wishful thinking was to no avail.   Still, the rifle made by Creamer for the western frontier is a nice piece of history!    Chances are those initials, placed on the bottom flat most likely are from a barrel maker.  I will not give up on my study regarding Bridger as a gunsmith. More is out there and Wikipedia is not always precise with all of their facts.  Thank you Gibster for bringing this rifle out for us to view with your hands on study!
Joel Hall

Offline alyce-james

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2015, 11:53:43 PM »
Gibster; Sir, thanks for sharing the information and pictures of this rifle and its history. Have a great day. AJ.
"Candy is Dandy but Liquor is Quicker". by Poet Ogden Nash 1931.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2015, 01:37:40 AM »
Doubt this is the case but thought I would through it out. James Gillespie signed his rifles JA G I assume to keep from confusing them with his brother John's initials for J G.
Dennis
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Offline Topknot

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2015, 03:25:57 AM »
Taylor, I stand corrected. Dont know what I was thinking except bridger toted a hawken , so its a hawken.

                                                                      topknot
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jamesthomas

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2015, 05:33:59 AM »
 I like the fact that it is a full stock rifle instead of a half stock. Half stocked rifles have always looked unfinished to me.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2015, 06:52:34 AM »
Really neat to see this Creamer rifle we've read about but not seen...and neat to have someone finally find out what Bridger's middle initial most probably was...but I have a hard time believing this rifle was made in 1822. I agree it was originally flint, but the late style lock plate, single bolt, almost total disappearance of all of Creamer's artistic details including any lower butt or forestock molding lines, and thin toe on butt all point to a late 1830s+ date to me.  

Sometimes smaller museums that rely in large part on what donors tell them about an item, end up with more wishful thinking than actual fact with the heirloom...particularly when no supporting documentation accompanies the item. However, it's still possible this rifle may have had a connection to Bridger in some manner...but probably not his making the rifle in 1822.

Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: May 16, 2015, 06:58:32 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Curt J

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2015, 05:20:04 PM »
I don't know how this rifle came to be in this museum, but it is the very same rifle that I owned for a number of years.  It is pictured in my book, GUNMAKERS OF ILLINOIS, 1683 - 1900, Vol. I and in the small book PHILIP CREAMER, by Vic Paul and myself. The details about this rifle are accurate, but the story about it being owned by Jim Bridger is new to me.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2015, 06:07:14 PM »
It sounds like someone is stretching history to make an otherwise interesting but plain rifle more desirable (valuable).
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Curt J

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2015, 08:00:58 PM »
As far as I am concerned, this rifle doesn't need any embellishing. It is clearly a rifle made for the West, with no unnecessary frills.  Straight grained maple for strength, and .50 caliber to get the job done. It has not been of smaller caliber and later re-bored to .50. The ramrod ferrules are in keeping with the bore size.  This is truly a rifle that makes you think "If only this could talk".

Offline Loudy

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2015, 08:56:48 PM »
I had the good fortune to have had a chance to hold this gun in my hands back when Curt owned it. I was always fascinated by it.  Thank you posting the photos. 

Curt,
Do you recall if the barrel was straight tapered or swamped? 

FYI... the Fall & Cunningham hardware company ran ads in the local Nashville papers and showed up in the business directories from about 1852 until 1860. 

Loudy

Offline Curtis

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2015, 11:35:04 PM »
Gibster, would that rifle happen to be in the Native American museum in Bentonville Arkansas?  I think I have seen it before.  Great museum.

Curtis
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Offline gibster

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2015, 01:31:59 AM »
Curtis - Yes, that is the museum that has the rifle.  I agree, it's a nice museum with some interesting artifacts.

Loudy - The barrel has a slight swamp to it. I posted the measurements in the original post.

Curt - The museum curator isn't the one that attributed this to Jim Bridger.  Evidently, others felt that he had a hand in this rifle as evidenced by the article published in the KRA brown book.  My understanding is that the attribution was made prior to the rifle being placed on display and that documentation was provided by the owner.  I don't know if the documentation provided is from the KRA brown book of if additional information was provided.

Tanselman - I would have to wonder if a rifle that was being made to go west into the mountains would have had the typical artistic details that would normally be on one of Creamers rifles.  But I have to agree that several of the features on this rifle, would normally be found on later rifles.  The lock may be a replacement that was large enough to cover the original lock mortise, and if so, would explain a later style lock. Without removing the lock there probably isn't any way to know.  And even if removed it may not tell the story.

I don't have any information on the rifle other than what has been previously published. Whether it is a rifle that was made by or with the help of Jim Bridger, I can't say.  But it is a nice addition to the Native American Museum and if you are ever in the Bentonville Arkansas area, stop in and take a look at it and the rest of the items on display.

Offline Curt J

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2015, 02:39:48 AM »
If you take a good look at the Fall & Cunningham lock, you will see that it too was originally flintlock, but it is NOT the original lock. The original was probably well worn at the time it was converted to percussion, so it was replaced with a lock that was still tight and crisp.

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2015, 06:00:14 AM »
Curt... How do we know this is not the original late style flintlock plate in the rifle? It fits the mortise very well, all the way around, with a relatively even amount of wood border around the plate. Did you pull the lock to examine the mortise when you had the gun, and did you find evidence of a smaller lock being on the gun at one time?

Based just of surface appearance, I'd guess it's the original lock plate, used as a late 1830s/early 1840s flintlock on a rifle going west where the owner wanted a flint due to the fear of unavailability of percussion caps in the wilderness. It appears of appropriate/proper size and age for the rifle, and a very good fit in the mortise, to me. Thus the question...has the lock been removed and if so, was there evidence of the mortise being enlarged, or remnants of a smaller original mortise, visible inside? It sure looks good to me as it currently sits.

Thanks, Shelby Gallien

Offline Curt J

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Re: Jim Bridger Rifle
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2015, 04:29:52 PM »
Shelby, yes I removed the lock, as well as the barrel, when I owned it.  There was evidence of an earlier, slightly smaller lock mortise.  In fact, the man I bought it from pointed it out before I bought it. I bought it at Friendship, many years ago. Jerry Noble, George Shumway and I disassembled it in George's booth right after I bought it. It was at that time that the "J. A. B." initials on the underside of the barrel were first noted.