How about wheelweights?

[Blacktail]

I hope to be shooting my .58 by this fall and was wondering what kind of results you men have had with balls cast from wheel weights. I've seen several references to shooting RBs cast from such, but have had no luck finding any particulars.

On a related topic, what lead hardness tester do you prefer? I've got access to a pile of lead around here but have no way to know what alloy it is.   

[Scota4570]

I used WW for balls many years ago.  WW casts larger than pure lead.  WW is much harder.  Put them together and loading gets difficult.  If you got a smaller  mold for WW it would load easier.  But then it would not upset upon firing to make a good gas seal.  So them maybe use a wad under?  Seems like a lot of fussing when pure lead works great as is.  Maybe spend the money you would need for a smaller mold on some pure lead? 

[tddeangelo]

I'm pretty new to this, but I have noticed that pure, or very close to pure lead will provide a "rainbow" color to it, similar to case hardened receivers, when melted and in the resulting ingots. Alloyed lead doesn't do this.

Beyond that, I'm curious how folks have fared out with WW lead for balls. Keep in mind that clip on wheel weights (COWW) are alloy and considered harder than stick on wheel weights (SOWW), which are often soft and close to pure. For this reason, most will separate out the two types when making ingots.

[smylee grouch]

I have used alot of WW and they worked ok for me. The spru was alittle harder to cut off. Make sure there is no moisture left on them when you put them into the melting pot if you clean any dirt or oil off them. Shot and experiment with ball sizes, patch material and thickness.

[Stormrider51]

As others have noted, WW will work in rifles but generally the ball must be smaller in diameter.  This is because pure lead is soft and the patch will be depressed into the metal.  WW metal is hard and will not deform as readily and makes loading more difficult.  On the other hand, WW seems to work well in smoothbores provided you use wads, tow, or just about anything but a patch.  Using a patch puts you right back where you are with a rifle, in need of a smaller ball.

I thought I'd make my contribution in regard to wheel weights themselves.  It used to be simple.  Wheel weights were pretty much wheel weights but that's not true anymore.  There has been a move away from using lead and so in a given bucket of used wheel weights you may find some made from almost pure lead, the harder lead alloy we are familiar with, zinc, steel, and even some sort of polymer (plastic).  The trick is to separate the lead and alloy weights from the zinc, steel, or poly.  It's not that difficult.  First off, sort the weights into two piles, stick-on and clip-on.  Use a pair of wire cutters or other appropriate tool to check the hardness of the stick-ons.  You may find that most are soft lead.  The metal will mark easily and the marks will be shiny and silver colored.  Set those aside for casting into rifle balls.  You can do the same "tool check" with the clip-ons.  Remember that the alloy weights will be harder to nick with the tool than pure lead.  It's a matter of developing a feel.  Zinc and steel are much harder to mark with the tool.  It will be pretty evident you aren't dealing with lead or lead alloy.  They may also be marked "Z" or "Zn" for zinc or "Fe" for steel.  Put these aside in separate buckets.  You can sell the metal for scrap.  The polymer weights can be thrown away.  They have no value.

Just in case anyone is thinking "Why not just put them all in the pot?" there's a good reason.  Steel weights will simply float and will not melt at casting temperatures so there is no real danger.  But why waste your time?  You will have to fish out the very hot steel weights and let them cool safely before they can be disposed of.  Zinc on the other hand, melts at about 785 F.  That's within casting temps and you will have contaminated your lead.  Contrary to what some have told me, once it's melted, it's in there and there's no way to separate it back out.  Finally, I'm sure I don't need to tell you why you don't want to toss some polymer weights into the pot.  They melt.  They smoke,  They stink.  They get all over everything.

SR51 

[Daryl]

Well presented, Stormrider51 - very good. I will only add, that if WW containing zinc are melted with your lead, it not only contaminates the 'melt' but will contaminate the pot as well.  Straight zinc actually casts quite nicely and makes VERY lightweight bullets, but a mix of zinc and lead does not cast well and never will.
It is best to separate the zinc weights out before casting and discard it.

Examples of mould sizes for shooting hard alloyed balls.

I used to shoot WW balls in a .58, which was normally used a .575" pure lead ball, by using a .562" mould for the WW's.

My .69 (14 bore) shoots WW just fine, using a 15 bore mould, ie: .677", while the pure lead balls are used with  the .684"mould.

[hanshi]

I much prefer WW ball in my .62 smoothbore; they shoot very, very well.  I've also cast rifle ball of WW and and loaded them exactly as I loaded lead ball, patch and all.  In the smaller calibers the increased diameter of WW ball is insignificant and does not need to be allowed for.  By the time you get up to .50 "some" barrels may need slight accommodation for the slightly larger ball.  The Lee mold for my smoothbore casts a .600" ball from dead soft lead.  When I substitute WW alloy the balls measure from .605" to .606"; still not that much but it makes patching them exceedingly difficult even with thin material.  So those larger balls are fired without a patch (bare ball) and give very good accuracy.  The Tanner mold I own casts .590" with lead and just slightly larger with WW.  Casting and firing WW ball is NOT the challenge that many assume.  Individual barrels may or may not load and shoot them easily but in general it's simply not that much of a problem.   

[yardhunter]

I use roof lead vents. Must easier to pour & load.

[Blacktail]

Thanks for the responses gents. I'll have to experiment once the gun is up and running. How do WW compare to pure lead for performance on game?

[Stormrider51]

I think you will find that it's a case of choosing what you want for the game hunted and the caliber of gun used.  A soft lead ball will begin to flatten on impact with anything resembling a solid mass.  As it gains diameter it creates a larger wound channel while losing energy.  Penetration suffers though so it's a trade-off.  On the other hand, a ball cast from wheel weight metal will resist being deformed therefore retaining more of its energy and penetrating deeper.  The smaller the game animal, the less any of this matters.  The larger the caliber of the ball, the less any of this matters.

SR51

[Chuck Burrows]

Thanks for the responses gents. I'll have to experiment once the gun is up and running. How do WW compare to pure lead for performance on game?

Based on my experiences as well as several others, over the last 40+years using wheel weights they do great on game, especially bigger game like deer and bear. With these bigger animals you need/want penetration not so much expansion. With smaller deer it still works fine although you may have more pass throughs, but that just gives a better blood trail if needed.
FWIW - Hardened lead balls of different tyeps were commonly used by the Brits in India and Africa from the 1840's on at least, so using harder than pure lead balls (not sure when that was decided) works just fine. For my own needs I cast a smaller ball and use the same patching.

[satwel]

I inherited a supply of wheel weight alloy that use to make balls for my tradegun, officer's fusil and Long Land Pattern Bess. I save my pure lead for rifle balls. As noted, the WW metal casts a slightly larger ball than lead from the same mold.

[bob in the woods]

When I take my 10 bore for bears or moose, I shoot a WW ball.  Their bones are larger and tougher than deer. I don't worry about expansion , since the ball is already….well..it's a 10 bore   

[Old Ford2]

If you are not sure what lead you have, take a piece of lead that you are sure is relatively pure and drop it on concrete, it will have a dead thud, the harder the lead the greater the " ring "
Even wheel weights, if you remove the steel clip, drop it on the floor, you will hear a particular ring different from the zinc wheel weight.
Fred

[omark]

We balls are harder on steel targets, especially in bigger bores.           Mark

[Daryl]

For a true .58, it's usually best to use a .562" ball, and a thicker patch than what you would use with a .575" ball. Accuracy can be from identical, to close enough.

The WW bass are better for hunting moose, elk and especially the big bears - grizzly's. They do not flatten on bones and ensure deep penetration.
I had a WW ball from my .69, break out a 6" long piece of rib, then penetrate both lungs, exit the cavity, then smash the offside leg, stopping on the hide - range 95yards. WW balls penetrate. If it had not hit the leg bone, it would have exited.  Friend of mine had exits on moose with WW balls when driven from a .75 cal. rifle Taylor built for him.  He was using 175gr. to 200gr. 2F with the patched 580gr. WW ball.

[hanshi]

Normally I use WW (old ones from way back) for my smoothbore and save soft lead for the rifles.  I've successfully used WW ball in small caliber rifles such as .36 & .40.  Their advantage on small game is the absence of expansion - not needed or wanted on small critters.  The largest game where I live is whitetail deer and black bear.  I like expansion with these game animals and so use soft lead for the rifles.  But a .600" WW ball doesn't need any expansion even on black bear and certainly not on deer.  Except for my "tight" smoothie, I usually change nothing when I substitute WW ball for lead.

[retired fella]

I've been reading this thread with interest.  I was told early on [30 years plus ago] if you can't scratch it with a thumb nail, don't use it.  So I have always used pure or close to pure lead.  My concern would be erosion of the lands of the barrel with continued use.

[jamesthomas]

I've been reading this thread with interest.  I was told early on [30 years plus ago] if you can't scratch it with a thumb nail, don't use it.  So I have always used pure or close to pure lead.  My concern would be erosion of the lands of the barrel with continued use.

 I would believe that the patch would prevent any erosion of the lands. Being as how I just found a place that has several hundred Lbs. of soft lead for sale I am set for life, I will probably have close to 500+ Lbs. when its all melted down.

[retired fella]

James e,
Thanks for the come back on my question.  Don't know that I would advertise the quantity of my munitions.  NSA might be listening.....shhhhh

[Stormrider51]

retired fella - I was raised to the same rule of dead soft lead in a rifle.  I never questioned it.  But when it comes to erosion of the lands I doubt you would find any difference between a WW ball with a thicker patch and soft lead ball with a thinner one.  The lube you use on the patch would make more difference than the hardness of the ball.  

SR51

[hanshi]

Right on, Stormrider51.  Bore erosion isn't an issue with muzzies regardless of whether one uses WW or dead soft lead.

[retired fella]

Thanks fellas, I appreciate the come back.

[kaintuck]

And here I have 700# WW ingots........tomtom made me melt it all for nothin!

Dang kat



Marc

[Daryl]

And here I have 700# WW ingots........tomtom made me melt it all for nothin!

Dang kat

Marc

Why was it for nothing?