.68 or .69 Hawken?

[M82A1710M]

Hello, I am new here. I'm hoping someone can help me ID this rifle for a friend. He say's it's marked Hawken but I haven't seen it to confirm.  Here are a few pictures.  Any rough idea of value?  Thanks in advance for your help!

[haddockkl]

More pictures would be great, to include a close up of the lock and any makers marks. It is a very interesting rifle, looks a little bit like what one might imagine General Ashley's large bore Hawken he had on the expedition in 1822 to the Rockies.

[M82A1710M]

I will ask for more detailed pictures, thanks. 

This is the possibles bag that came with the rifle.

[stuart cee dub]

The dog leg stock reminds me of big bruin rifles made in California .
I recall the stock shape but not the maker. (brown cover book ...Gunsmiths of California,Yreka maybe? )
While homely this shape has some advanatges .
Does anyone else see the same shape I'm seeing ?

[smylee grouch]

I see lots of lands and groves. I,m wondering how that worked with the large bore. Did it alow the patches to grab ahold of the ball better or the reverse? Did it foul more or less with all those small narrow groves?

[Bob Roller]

Hello, I am new here. I'm hoping someone can help me ID this rifle for a friend. He say's it's marked Hawken but I haven't seen it to confirm.  Here are a few pictures.  Any rough idea of value?  Thanks in advance for your help!

European styling from St.Louis? Polygroove barrel and Eurostyled lock.
See if it has a makers name.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm seeing a European hunting rifle for sure.  It's not a Hawken rifle.  If it was, it would say so on the top flat between the rear sight and the breech plug.

[Hungry Horse]

Stuart, might that be Joseph Craig from Weaverville? He made heavy mountain rifles for bear,and elk. He eventually moved to San Louis Obispo, I think. Some of his rifles are very much like those made by the Hawken brothers.

    Hungry Horse

[eddillon]

European lock conversion.  European rear sight.  European Damascus barrel.  European rifling.  Kinda American stock.  I don't see Joe Craig at all.

[greywolf]

The Hawken shop was a retail business. They must have built what the customer wanted. Mariano Medina's rifle got a new lock and a new barrel. I'm sure they would have recycled and/or replaced any gun parts needed to make a working weapon. They made some guns with what we would consider unusual
bore sizes.

[M82A1710M]

Thanks for all of the replies. Still not sure what it is.

If it checks out okay any reason not to shoot it?

[JTR]

As for what it is, listen to D. Taylor Sapergia and aka California eddillon and you'll have your answer.
John

[M82A1710M]

As for what it is, listen to D. Taylor Sapergia and aka California eddillon and you'll have your answer.
John

Thanks and I understand it's most likely European. Still curious as to who the maker was.

[Hungry Horse]

 years ago a guy that used to shoot in many Northern California events, had an original rifle that was made in Ireland. it also had multi-groove rifling, and artificial damascus finish on the barrel, it was .60 caliber, and a half stock.But I don't remember the makers name.

                Hungry Horse

[Longknife]

Thanks for all of the replies. Still not sure what it is.

If it checks out okay any reason not to shoot it?

Well, I wouldn't shoot it until it was inspected by a knowledgeable person.....

[huntinguy]

Was that notch, where the drum is, common to European rifles?
Kind of interesting,  to weaken the barrel there.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The barrel has a patent type breech plug.  The flat that receives the drum is recessed.  I suspect that the plug's powder channel is very small...perhaps only 1/4" in diameter.  You could perform this work on a barrel without a patent breech if the barrel was was sufficiently thick, ie:  length of threaded journal of drum to just come to the bore, plus enough to remove for the recess.  Not many of our modern barrels are heavy enough for this, especially in this large calibre.

[eddillon]

IMHO, buy a modern repro.  Shoot it.  Leave this fine rifle as it is and just admire it while is in your care.

[Dphariss]

Breech looks like a recessed type FL breech with a drum screwed in the vent. There is no reason for the recess in a percussion . I would also worry about drum installation.
Bore looks like its rusted to death so I see no point in shooting it just on that count. I am sure the Hawken shop did not rifle it. Too many grooves. In any event it would require pulling the breech and drum for examination even if the bore was nice.  It looks like it might be an American restock of European parts. Or as Taylor said a European sporting rifle.  The "Hawken" scroll guard, for example, was in use in England well before the Hawken Bros. started using it.  We need more photos to make any determination. An over all view and one of the barrel/breech markings if any would be really nice.

Dan

[JCKelly]

The multi-groove rifling is similar to that in an Austrian wheel lock rifle I have, about .65 cal and converted to percussion.

That style of checkering is very much like a full stock Michigan (Detroit) made rifle signed "BERGKR". That maker later Anglicized his name to Caspar Berger, likewise I've not seen another of his rifles with that peculiar style of wrist checkering. Additionally, full stock percussion rifles are uncommon in Michigan, most were half-stock.

My opinion, based on this BERGKR/BERGER rifle is that whoever made your rifle was recently arrived here from Germany & hadn't yet fully adopted the American barrel and stock styles. Just a thought..