Front sight on the barrel band...

[Stormrider51]

Muskets like the French "Charleville" and later Springfield 1795 placed the front, and only, sight on the front barrel band.  I've been curious as to how this affected accuracy.  I have a Brown Bess (Pedersoli) that is surprisingly accurate given the bayonet lug of a front sight.  How does the French design compare accuracy-wise?

SR51

[T*O*F]

Muskets are designed for volley fire, not accuracy.  Any sights are just an aid for pointing.

[Stormrider51]

Contrary to popular belief the British, and more so the French, did encourage aimed fire.  The left side of the buttstock on the French 1777 was dished out to allow the shooter to place his eye more precisely in line with the barrel.  But I'm not using one for battle in the first place.  My Bess is a hunting gun using ball or shot depending on the circumstances.  Accuracy does matter and I've worked up the best loads for that purpose.  That's why I'm curious about whether the placement of the front sight on the barrel band results in degraded accuracy.  Logic tells me it would but I thought I'd see what someone with actual experience with one found.

Thanks,
SR51 

[Daryl]

A narrow front sight should/will be a more accurate sight than the lump of a bayonette lug. 

How accurate it and/or how consistent it might be, depends on you and the gun, the load, the wadding or patch and it's fit with the ball of choice along with how much you practice with it. Within reasonable ranges, guys who shoot nothing but smoothbores, are more accurate with them, then people who shoot rifles but do not shoot nor practice very much with them.

I have to keep reminding myself of the silhouette match a the Hefely Creek Rendezvous some years back - 2008, I think, the highest rifle score was lower than the 2 highest smoothbores scores - on the same targets at the same ranges.  The smoothbores had difficulty with the 100yard targets (so did the rifle shooters), but those shooting smoothies didn't miss with targets out to 50-60 yards nailing every one of those, whereas most rifle shooters had difficulty at close ranges as well.

The person who practices, will have more 'hitting accidents' than one who does not practice.

[Stormrider51]

Thanks, Daryl.  Yes, smoothbores can surprise the uninitiated.  Here's a group fired from 40 yards with my Bess.  Not too shabby considering that the bayonet lug subtends the entire diamond at that distance.  My eyes aren't what they used to be either.



I have a Dutch Club Butt 20 ga. that does better than that.  I credit the "finer" front sight for the increase in accuracy over the Bess.  I've been giving serious thought to locking the barrel of the Bess up in a milling machine and using a cutter to shave down the width of the bayonet lug until it becomes a better sight.

Back to my original question, it would seem that a front sight that's not attached directly to the barrel would be subject to changing points of impact because of anything from wear on the stock to heat and humidity.  Thought I'd ask to see is anyone owns or has owned a Charleville and had any input.  I may have to find a Charleville for sale and find out for myself.

Thanks again,
SR51 

[Old Bob]

The bad thing about the sight being on the barrel band on the Charleville is that the band tends to move a little. I shimmed mine and tightened it up. Mine is surprisingly accurate even with unpatched balls, using only the cartridge paper for patching. I haven't shot it in a long time and may take it to the range tomorrow.

[Stormrider51]

Thanks, Bob.  That's the info I was looking for.  Thanks also for the tip on shimming the front barrel band.  I've still got some brass shim stock laying around here somewhere should I decide to buy or trade for a Frenchie.

SR51

[Habu]

I've been giving serious thought to locking the barrel of the Bess up in a milling machine and using a cutter to shave down the width of the bayonet lug until it becomes a better sight.

Back to my original question, it would seem that a front sight that's not attached directly to the barrel would be subject to changing points of impact because of anything from wear on the stock to heat and humidity.  Thought I'd ask to see is anyone owns or has owned a Charleville and had any input.  I may have to find a Charleville for sale and find out for myself.

I played with a Charleville for about a year because I was curious about the same question.  After wringing it out, I filed off the issue sight and put a sight on the barrel (copied the sight off my Bess).  On average--over hundreds of shots--it shot better with the barrel sight, but not a great deal better.  Group size dropped about 3/4" at 50 yards.  Since my Bess shot better for me, and I hated the fit and feel of the Charleville, I traded it off with no regrets. 

As for the sight on the Bess, milling it narrower works but some weren't well attached.  Narrowing the sight can remove enough of the solder joint that the sight might get bumped off.  That isn't a reason to not do it, but something to watch for. 

[moleeyes36]

I had a canoe gun with a 24" barrel that I simply took a mill file and narrowed the blade of the silver "turtle sight".  I not only was able to get better groups, I was able to center them on the target by filing more off one side than the other.  Worked like a champ.

Mole Eyes

[Stormrider51]

Thanks for the reply and sharing your experience, Habu.  It's interesting that you found that the Bess fit you better than the Charleville.  Now you really have me wanting to get a Frenchie to compare to.  That will probably mean selling or trading the Bess though.  If I decide to narrow the bayonet lug on the Bess I'll be setting up the mill to leave the base full width at the bottom so that it looks like standard front sight with base and blade.

Thanks again,
SR51

[Stormrider51]

I had a canoe gun with a 24" barrel that I simply took a mill file and narrowed the blade of the silver "turtle sight".  I not only was able to get better groups, I was able to center them on the target by filing more off one side than the other.  Worked like a champ.

Mole Eyes

I was lucky in that the turtle sight on my Dutch club butt was centered for windage.  I did file it down a tad to bring up the point of impact. 

SR51 

[moleeyes36]

I had a canoe gun with a 24" barrel that I simply took a mill file and narrowed the blade of the silver "turtle sight".  I not only was able to get better groups, I was able to center them on the target by filing more off one side than the other.  Worked like a champ.

Mole Eyes

I was lucky in that the turtle sight on my Dutch club butt was centered for windage.  I did file it down a tad to bring up the point of impact. 

SR51 

Yes I had to do that also.  The little gun shot well with 65 grains of 2fg Swiss, especially with such a short barrel.  I've since sold the gun to a young fellow up in Illinois who can better withstand the recoil that little 5 1/2 pound gun produced.  He's sent me some pictures of his groups and they are excellent.

Mole Eyes

[Stormrider51]

I had a canoe gun with a 24" barrel that I simply took a mill file and narrowed the blade of the silver "turtle sight".  I not only was able to get better groups, I was able to center them on the target by filing more off one side than the other.  Worked like a champ.

Mole Eyes

I was lucky in that the turtle sight on my Dutch club butt was centered for windage.  I did file it down a tad to bring up the point of impact. 

SR51 

Yes I had to do that also.  The little gun shot well with 65 grains of 2fg Swiss, especially with such a short barrel.  I've since sold the gun to a young fellow up in Illinois who can better withstand the recoil that little 5 1/2 pound gun produced.  He's sent me some pictures of his groups and they are excellent.

Mole Eyes

Now you have got my ageing old shoulder to aching!