Author Topic: Dumb question of the week  (Read 5131 times)

Offline Nordnecker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1252
Dumb question of the week
« on: June 03, 2015, 02:08:47 PM »
What is the difference between a "coned" or "crowned" muzzle?
"I can no longer stand back and allow communist infiltration, communist indoctrination and the international communist conspiracy to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids."- Gen Jack T. Ripper

kaintuck

  • Guest
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2015, 02:11:35 PM »
Don't all muzzles have a crown, and coned is when the bore is somewhat relieved into it for a inch or so to make ball/patch seating with your thumb?

Burton does his barrels with a crown that automatically centers the patched ball for easy shove with the RR...

Tomtom.

Offline Mikeh

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2015, 02:26:05 PM »
Isn't the cone what centers the ball and makes for easy loading? I thought the crown was where the barrel was
champhered on the outside at the muzzle? Not sure. Mikeh
Mikeh

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2015, 03:58:19 PM »
The crowning a barrel means taking the sharp edge off of the opening in the muzzle. It can be done with a piece of Emery Cloth and your thumb by putting the abrasive and your thumb in the muzzle and rotating the barrel. It does ease loading somewhat. Many barrels come with a crown from the maker but some do not.

Coning the barrel means using a coned shape tool covered with abrasive to basically grind the lands of the rifling nearly down to the bottoms of the grooves right at the muzzle and then allowing the lands to return to normal gradually over .5-1.5 inches of bore. This eases loading significantly.  Arguments abound regarding the historical correctness of coning as well as it's impact on accuracy.

« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 03:59:20 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 699
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 10:26:25 PM »
Like on modern breech loading cartridge guns-crowning is a chamfer cut into the muzzle end of the bore to protect the rifling from damage should the muzzle bit something. That's it's sole purpose. Think of it as a shallow countersink.

Coning is making the bore tapered to a certain depth at the muzzle. This gives you a slightly larger diameter at the muzzle then tapers to the actual bore diameter. It's done to make it easier to seat the ball.
Bob

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2015, 12:28:32 AM »
I love the dumb question of the week ;D The only dumb thing are those things you don't know and don't ask about.
 I've been asking alot of questions about guns we don't talk about here. There's a steep learning curve when you're learning a new game.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 16003
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2015, 02:47:25 AM »
A long cone does not actually ease loading - seemingly increasing drag and the pressure requited to load, as we found out with the first of LB's .40's. He'd run out of balls, so I gave him some of the ones I was using at the time in my .398" bore, Goodioen barrel.   

He complained that he was having a lot of difficulty loading the bore size ball in his coned muzzle, yet in my .002" tighter crowned muzzle, they loaded easily. To understand this seeming phenomenon, one must learn about drawing metal and the angles needed for that. When I tested the .400's in his .40- he was correct. In my .398 (.40)- they loaded into the muzzle & down the bore quite easily in comparrison.

The crown we've been preaching for many years (since the 1970's) works like a charm.  I learned this from reading up on Corbin bullet swaging, and drawing process where they discussed the necessary angles.

The coned muzzle might allow easier loading of what we think of as already too loose a combination. With the tighter combos, coning, as least as in LB's rifle, made for more difficult loading of a really tight combination.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Mikeh

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2015, 03:46:33 PM »
Thanks to you fella's for the clarification. You can never learn too much. Mikeh
Mikeh

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1864
    • My etsy shop
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 01:21:53 AM »
I love the dumb question of the week ;D The only dumb thing are those things you don't know and don't ask about.
 I've been asking alot of questions about guns we don't talk about here. There's a steep learning curve when you're learning a new game.

I totally agree with Mr. Brooks. I always remind my students that there is no such thing as a dumb question.  But there are some really dumb comments.  I learned that working in museums.  So ask away.

Offline Mark Elliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5191
    • Mark Elliott  Artist & Craftsman
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2015, 03:24:57 AM »
The crowning a barrel means taking the sharp edge off of the opening in the muzzle. It can be done with a piece of Emery Cloth and your thumb by putting the abrasive and your thumb in the muzzle and rotating the barrel. It does ease loading somewhat. Many barrels come with a crown from the maker but some do not.

Coning the barrel means using a coned shape tool covered with abrasive to basically grind the lands of the rifling nearly down to the bottoms of the grooves right at the muzzle and then allowing the lands to return to normal gradually over .5-1.5 inches of bore. This eases loading significantly.  Arguments abound regarding the historical correctness of coning as well as it's impact on accuracy.



Hey Tim, 

The .5-1.5" length of a cone seems too short based on my experience with antique rifles.   As most of my experience with antique rifles is photographing them and I must place support rods in the bore; I am very familiar with the inner dimensions of antique rifle bores.    In my experience,  coned antique rifle barrels have cones that run a few inches into the bore.   Frequently, the actual bore is much smaller than it appears at the muzzle.   

I had one of these over the weekend.  It was, as usual for a coned rifle barrel, a southern gun, probably from S.W. VA or Eastern KY.    It looked to be about 40cal on the outside, yet it would barely start on the 3/8" rod.  I tried the 5/16" rod and it went in a couple inches.   I had to go down to 1/4" and it fit snug.     I have rarely encountered this much cone, but in my experience,  it usually runs 2-3 inches in the bore and I have to drop down 1/16" in rod diameter to accommodate it.    This is not a scientific study by any means, but just my experience after photographing a couple hundred rifles, mostly southern.

It could be that .5-1.5" is normal, but seems a little short to my recollection.   Of course, all of this is minutia that would probably only be of interest to a couple people, if that. 
   

Online Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9759
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2015, 03:11:25 PM »
The crowning a barrel means taking the sharp edge off of the opening in the muzzle. It can be done with a piece of Emery Cloth and your thumb by putting the abrasive and your thumb in the muzzle and rotating the barrel. It does ease loading somewhat. Many barrels come with a crown from the maker but some do not.

Coning the barrel means using a coned shape tool covered with abrasive to basically grind the lands of the rifling nearly down to the bottoms of the grooves right at the muzzle and then allowing the lands to return to normal gradually over .5-1.5 inches of bore. This eases loading significantly.  Arguments abound regarding the historical correctness of coning as well as it's impact on accuracy.



I would think that a .5 would be a countersink and not a taper.

Bob Roller

Hey Tim, 

The .5-1.5" length of a cone seems too short based on my experience with antique rifles.   As most of my experience with antique rifles is photographing them and I must place support rods in the bore; I am very familiar with the inner dimensions of antique rifle bores.    In my experience,  coned antique rifle barrels have cones that run a few inches into the bore.   Frequently, the actual bore is much smaller than it appears at the muzzle.   

I had one of these over the weekend.  It was, as usual for a coned rifle barrel, a southern gun, probably from S.W. VA or Eastern KY.    It looked to be about 40cal on the outside, yet it would barely start on the 3/8" rod.  I tried the 5/16" rod and it went in a couple inches.   I had to go down to 1/4" and it fit snug.     I have rarely encountered this much cone, but in my experience,  it usually runs 2-3 inches in the bore and I have to drop down 1/16" in rod diameter to accommodate it.    This is not a scientific study by any means, but just my experience after photographing a couple hundred rifles, mostly southern.

It could be that .5-1.5" is normal, but seems a little short to my recollection.   Of course, all of this is minutia that would probably only be of interest to a couple people, if that. 
   

omark

  • Guest
Re: Dumb question of the week
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2015, 05:46:37 PM »
Tim' it certainly interests me.       Thank you,       Mark