converting FLINTLOCK TO PERCUSSION CAP CONVERSION

[CHARLY]

Hi ----
does anyone have a cutaway diagram of a POWDER DRUM ---&NIPPLE-with DIMENSIONS?
-- IE  std 1/2 inch- diam powder drum --with nipple -- OR  A FOTO--of cross section?

intend to DIY  with mild steel /taps etc

simply require  ID  of hole thru powder barrel and nipple
already have modified hammer
---and percussion caps -----4 -5 mm
obviously someone has attempted home made percussion components ---
worth a try?
thankyou --appreciate any help ( Have fotos from track of wolf catalog---but no internal flash hole details shown ---only external views---
--- C

[Curt Larsen]

I guess my question is "why would you want to do that."  It depends on the gun, but a lot of folks want to reconvert percussion to flint.  Just wondering.

[Hungry Horse]

Unless this project has some kind of special dimentions, it appears to fall into the " reinventing the wheel" catagory. what I'm saying, is why waste your time, and creativity, on something that virtually nobody is going to realize is hand made?

   Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

Blank drums come with 1/4", 5/16", or 3/8" threads.  You drill the nipple hole for a standard 1/4 x 28 nipple.  The hole thru the drum is a #29 drill so you can thread the outside with a #8 screw to plug the hole.  Blanks are only a couple of bucks.  Unless you have a lathe, how do you propose to cut the shoulder on the plug to butt up against the barrel?

[CHARLY]

Blank drums come with 1/4", 5/16", or 3/8" threads.  You drill the nipple hole for a standard 1/4 x 28 nipple.  The hole thru the drum is a #29 drill so you can thread the outside with a #8 screw to plug the hole.  Blanks are only a couple of bucks.  Unless you have a lathe, how do you propose to cut the shoulder on the plug to butt up against the barrel?

THANKYOU SO MUCH ---T.O.F.--- appreciate enormously ---
the dimensions are very helpful ----exactly what I required

just a bit confused with the ID of the hole through the DRUM---
 what is the equivalent of a #  29 drill ? what size in mm can I use to drill this hole ?

apologies --I live in the African bush---my flintlock took me 7 months to build -entirely by hand from scrap steel/fotos---etc--mostly trial& Error--- but I got it right eventually with this forums great assistance ---lot of sweat --but well worth it!----
not forgetting  Mark Elliots unselfish  constant guidance /inspiration/heat treatment /forging
instructions ----would never have climbed the DIY  mountain without his support--

  Now its time to explore the percussion method ---sounds intriguing-
all my tools are rather primitive by your high standards---
but that does not stop me from persevering---

Its not impossible ------no lathe---but mild steel round bar can be ground/ shaped /tapped/threaded--etc
 to create a barrel /nipple ----even if its not perfect-first time --

I realize the parts are not expensive ----but  far more rewarding creating the percussion
 from scratch ---ok if I blow it --will beg the banks for a few dollars --to import the real m,coy
-----a cutaway foto or drawing will help
but its not too difficult --just the ID  hole thru the barrel /nipple is not shown
 if you can give me the MM drill size ----really will help--
---the enlarging tapping of the touchhole to 5/16 inch-- worries me ----will this--- allow back blast from the main charge--  into the barrel/nipple opening----or does the nipple orifice---become the touchhole ?---obviously I have neverreally seen or fired a percussion rifle --only modern magnum hunting rifles--( ex pro hunter --40 yrs) - Zambia--
this is fascinating --but also dangerous--require a lot more info---
ok --many thanks ---appreciate the help --
regards --  C---

[T*O*F]

what is the equivalent of a #  29 drill ? what size in mm can I use to drill this hole ?

I don't do metric, but the decimal measurement of a #29 drill is 0.1360.

That being said, South Africa has a muzzleloading team that competes in World Muzzleloading matches.  They were even hosted there a few years back.  Obviously they have access to components and it might be beneficial for you to contact them.  I will see if I can get some contact information for you.

I have an English double rifle that came from SA.  The bush repairs relegated it to the trash heap without extensive proper repairs.

[CHARLY]

Thankyou so much - T*O*F---
wow that was fast ----very grateful

0.1360=== is 3.5 mm size drill
 so the barrel hole is 3.5 all the way thru
 
  IS  the nipple hole ID  the same?
 or smaller?--the fulminate cap taper  on the nipple was easy
 but can I drill a 2mm hole in nipple ? or 2.5

 that's all I require --thanku so much

Please do not contact the South  African  blackpowder  crowd -
tried them last year ---was NOT given a polite reception --nasty arrogant lot --avoid them like the plague--tried to humiliate me &  others---why? your guess is as good as mine!

 that's why I am a member of  ALR --   Americans have great heart --zero predjudice
---feel very welcome here --

so --all I require is the nipple hole  ID / DRILL size ---
then I can get cracking in my bush workshop

thanku so much--
 C

[ddoyle]

Charly

You need this web site. http://www.feuerwaffen.ch If you do a systematic search you will find most  answers to almost every question a lock maker could ever think to ask. 

Really wish you success over the long term. BTW have you Watched Williamsburg gunsmith/Colonial gunsmith on you tube? It is a nice bit of inspiration and with repeated viewings reveals alot.

[CHARLY]

Many thanks -d.doyle---
appreciate that website info ---will certainly scour it for the  ID  of a nipple hole
 that's all I really require now ---
very grateful --regards  C

[T*O*F]

As I said before, a standard American nipple is 1/4" x 28 threads.  The hole required for this thread is a #3 drill bit which is 0.2130 in diameter.  Various imported rifles such as CVA, Traditions, and others have metric nipples which are of similar size.

A nipple is not drilled straight thru.  The hole from the cone to almost the bottom is a #45 drill bit which is 0.820  and the exit hole at the bottom is smaller than a #60 drill bit, which is as small as mine go.  It is 0.0400.

[CHARLY]

EXACTLY what I needed---wow-- thankyou T*O*F-- spot on --now I am much the wiser-
 
 I had no idea --the nipple had 2 ID  hole sizes ---as small as ONE MM  at the bottom!
and TWO mm almost all the way down----that's very interesting

then the thread hole for nipple into barrel body ---is 0.2310--= 5 mm drill & 1/4 tap

 OK --- these dimensions are not shown in any catalog /website -that's why I asked--
as I do not have samples in hand -----I am very grateful ----now I can make my own
---trial and error /perseverance --- learn the hard way ---

forever in your debt --
you are a saint -----
regards  C--(  will send u a foto of the complete DIY  percussion parts)

[CHARLY]

As I said before, a standard American nipple is 1/4" x 28 threads.  The hole required for this thread is a #3 drill bit which is 0.2130 in diameter.  Various imported rifles such as CVA, Traditions, and others have metric nipples which are of similar size.

A nipple is not drilled straight thru.  The hole from the cone to almost the bottom is a #45 drill bit which is 0.820  and the exit hole at the bottom is smaller than a #60 drill bit, which is as small as mine go.  It is 0.0400.

 Hi T*O*F---
 can you confirm a typo error ?
--you said a # 45 DRILL BIT-- for the nipple cone hole--is  0.820 top to almost bottom
---but 0.820 = 20 mm !!
 --- surely you meant 0.0820?--- That = 2 mm---on my conversion app--

which looks correct
just curious

 I also use a 4.5 mm diam drill to make the hole for a 1/4 inch tap
as 1/4 inch 0.250--equals-only 6mm
your #3 drill bit which is o.2130 inch---equals 5.4 mm diam


so ----a 5.4 mm hole --tapped out to 6mm thread tap---is a bit narrow or weak-? /less thread
that's why I prefer a 4.5 mm drill ---to cut threads 6mm wide
( just a mm bigger --gives deeper /stronger threads--)in mild steel--
but that's just me worrying about nipple blasting up & out of the powder drum
--never done this before---so will be extra cautious

I assume the nipple will have to be case hardened?--( hammer blows ?)

--thankyou for the valuable info ----it all makes sense now--
-- C

[T*O*F]

Charly,
Typo confirmed.  Left out a zero.

As for the other dimensions, the information I have given you is what to use for American standard threads.
As you probably only have metric tools, you will have to make appropriate adjustments for proper strength, size and threads.

The decimal system is implanted in my brain and I have little use for the metric system.  As an ex auto mechanic, the conversion of US cars to the metric system just forced me to buy a complete set of tools with no benefit that I could ascertain.  It also doubled the inventory I was required to stock in my shops for certain hardware.  I'm sure you feel the same way about our old system.

[CHARLY]

 OK --- Many thanks T*O*F

the nipple ---case hardened?--or not?
 I have a foto with nipple dimensions external only

 total height of cone part-- = 6mm
diam --4mm--- 4.5 mm taper--hard to grind/ shape/polish that little cone ,symmetrical--tapered---one day I will have the real mcoy in my hand ---then I will wake up !

that tiny 1 mm bottom hole ---the 1 mm drill is microscopic--got to be careful it does not snap ---hope this works
-- appreciate ---the dimensions --saved me agonising long searches
regards-- C
--

[David Rase]

Charley,
I found this information on the internet from a guy who made his own nipples for a revolver.  I thought there might be some information you could use.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?63577-How-To-Machine-Muzzle-Loader-Nipples-With-A-Minimum-Of-Hassle
david

[ddoyle]

That is a good tutorial. This part might bear some consideration:

then I tempered them to a dark straw yellow color so they won't fracture.

This is why I really like flintlocks, lots less potential shrapnel and everything pointed outboard!

Play safe.

[shortbarrel]

CHARLY   I have two drum and nipple drums that are made in one piece. Came off old wrought iron barrels that were made in the mountains of North Carolina or Tennessee. They were hand filed and the drum was threaded with jam die. Both had the flats filed on the nipple part for taking it out, just for looks I guess. Some of these men worked in the same conditions, that you have noted. They were just converting Flint Locks to Cap Locks the best way they could. One was case hardened and the other just a little. The nipple on both were not battered down very much. Hope this helps you.

[Acer Saccharum]

I'm concerned about safety, and this thread worries me.

These rifles have gone through many evolutions to the present day, where we enjoy a high level of quality and safety. This thread is going back several technological generations to a period where safety wasn't the highest concern.

CHARLY, I have not seen any of your workmanship, but if it is with primitive tools and raw materials, your skill levels must be high enough so that you get good safe results, not just for you, but for the safety of any others who may be around you.

Tom

[CHARLY]

CHARLY   I have two drum and nipple drums that are made in one piece. Came off old wrought iron barrels that were made in the mountains of North Carolina or Tennessee. They were hand filed and the drum was threaded with jam die. Both had the flats filed on the nipple part for taking it out, just for looks I guess. Some of these men worked in the same conditions, that you have noted. They were just converting Flint Locks to Cap Locks the best way they could. One was case hardened and the other just a little. The nipple on both were not battered down very much. Hope this helps you.

Thankyou so much ---shortbarrel ---
 that's wonderful inspiring info ---gives me hope-----i knew some had handmade
the nipple /drum duo --not impossible

 now I am confident --I CAN  make my own percussion conversion parts --I have many fotos /dimensions---just ID holes diam needed--careful drilling /tapping 5 /8   INTO  LANDROVER 1955 steering shaft--  moderate steel barrel --total home made -- big & heavy --no more dodgy thin water pipes----

(  Not to worry  Abe  Sacharrum ----I appreciate your concern --
 my flintlock has worked very well fired hundreds of times --no probs

I have  Mark  Elliots great guidance and many experts on this  ALR site --to thank
for all their great help--

I am very cautious & careful ------one year now & still learning -far from your standards--
 but I a very safety aware ---always test fire with a LONG  string by remote distance
--I a concrete wall between me & experimental powder mix -or
my new Landrover steering shaft barrel --
big heavy ---7 mm =thick walls ---1955(series1) landrover

bored out to 13 mm ( 1/2 inch bore-- by hand drill )9 using ALR   expert help--
smooth bore ---honed with a car brake cyl hone ! on a long flexible  shaft----all works --just improvise --
ok its bush style & primitive by your high standards --but its done with great care &
 skill ----all your members have given me the skills to DIY  my own  barrel
  its round -32 mm OD  --- 34 inches long --was a BIT RUSTY - & PITTED  internally

--that did NOT stop the amazing  JAMES EVERETT from creating lock masterpieces from
 rusted old wrought iron --SCRAP!
I do enormous research b4 attempting bush forging

but its all done with great cARE & passion --

just great satisfaction doing it myself --no fancy catalog /store bought-- hi
---- -tech parts ( I can purchase everthing from  Pedersoli AGENTS  here
or Track  OF THE WOLF catalog

 but that's admitting defeat!--DIY  is the greatest learning curve --
 many thanks
 serendipidy --- percussion is a logical progression
 no more flash powder blown away -/damp powder-dull flints --etc etc
 
 just trying a new  approach --- fascinating ---no disrespect to flint afficianados
( being a pensioner with limited resources is no hindrance --  got to try every thing once !)
-- next ? maybe SHARPS drop block buffalo rifle?
 regards  C
------

 ---

[ddoyle]

Yes a careful thinking exercise about what happens to what parts when a loading issue or material failure begins to make thing unwind would be very prudent (in any project undertaken that involves high pressures fin proximity to eyeballs and hands).

As a new student of locks I would be very keen to see what you accomplished in your flintlock build? Would love the inspiration of seeing how you accomplished everything involved.


 

[CHARLY]

Yes a careful thinking exercise about what happens to what parts when a loading issue or material failure begins to make thing unwind would be very prudent (in any project undertaken that involves high pressures fin proximity to eyeballs and hands).

As a new student of locks I would be very keen to see what you accomplished in your flintlock build? Would love the inspiration of seeing how you accomplished everything involved.

 YO -- D DOYLE
IF YOU WANT FOTOS GALORE --  of all my bush /rough lock making --
 from every  aspect --successs &failures all documented on Canon digital --

 I will attach to your Email
( cannot get them onto this forum --as it uses a nightmarish -- foto bucket long winded
series of click here /there /go here -- find URL  -- codes -- paste this 2 that
 that had me exhausted
  so I will send to your email
then u can see all the blood /sweat etc

( have just successfully machined the powder --drum AND THE NIPPLE

---- AMAZING  what YOU CAN ACHIEVE
  spinning hand drill ---file the 1/2 inch mild steel -round bar in chuck-- till se a file to shape the taper cone ---  VOILA ---  success ---1/4 tap into DRUM --drill tiny
 holes carefully ---tap the 1/4 cleaning screw on one end
 drill barrel  /taP 5 /16 THREAD ---- ---
 ALL SET UP ---
well --nothing ventured ---if it fails --back to good old flintlock --
ok give me a email --then you can see my primitive --w /shop /forge /tools etc
 regards  C

just waiting for 11 mm caps from  PEDERSOLI --- THE ONLY  part I failed to  DIY
(NO  mercury fulminate in the backwoods)
 will wait ---
 

[CHARLY]

 Can someone enlighten me

tapped a 1/4 inch x 28  thread hole into the (home turned)--powder drum 
 to fit a nipple --
 no 11 nipple for # 11 perc caps

but the tap I used is metric thread
 ie ----says  6 x 1 mm---
as I ordered only the nipple from pedersoli agent

--will the commercial nipple --screw into the thread in my home made P drum?

ie is the nipple thread 1/4 x 28 ---- METRIC  _ OR  imperial?
no idead what make nipple is being sent from  Pedersoli --just says 2 fit 11 mm cap

appreciate clarity --or I will have to find an imperial thread 1/4 tap ?
thankyou ---  C

[CHARLY]

   THANKYOU  DAVID

  that website --casting boolits  etc   was very interesting indeed

 reall y appreciate --have given me ideas  ---
--regards    Charly