Author Topic: New Toys (Read 11275 times)

Mark Elliott · « **on:** June 16, 2015, 12:23:47 AM »

I just got a couple neat new tools (toys) that are pictured below. One is a pristine early screw plate, probably from the late 18th century or early 19th century. I don’t think this thing has ever been used. It appears to still have the temper colors on it

The other tool is a square shank circle cutter for use with a brace. However, I didn’t buy it as a circle cutter. I thought that with the addition of an appropriately sized dowel on the center point as a pilot, I could use it to cut circles on the muzzles of barrels. I had been meaning to make one as most of the ones in period gunmakers’ tool box was apparently home made. However, I saw this thing on ebay for less than $20. I snapped it up as quick as I could. I had never seen one before and didn’t know any such thing existed as a commercial product.

omark · « **Reply #1 on:** June 16, 2015, 12:31:28 AM »

Those are cool. Mark

David R. Pennington · « **Reply #2 on:** June 16, 2015, 03:25:17 AM »

Good finds Mark. Let us know how they work when you get a chance to play with them.

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #3 on:** June 16, 2015, 05:05:39 AM »

Mark,

A really beautiful early screw plate, quite a nice one. Let us know how it works1

Jim

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2015, 06:15:00 AM »

Actually, I was grinding and sharpening a couple of fish tail type metal bits (about 3/16" and 1/4") for a brace this evening. A lot of fun. Once I figured out that the tips needed to come to a point in two dimensions, they worked great. I bored a couple of holes though a piece of 1/8" brass. The shavings came off like wax leaving a couple nice neat holes. It didn't take much pressure at all. It was actually easier than with a twist drill bit in an electric drill. Of course, I don't normally sharpen my twist drills with diamond hones. Perhaps I should.

I will have to start trying to figure out the sizes of rod I need to use with the screw plate. I guess I should probably get some 1/4" 12L14 rod to turn down until it works at the various thread sizes and pitches. I figure that I only need to work out two to three sizes for gun work. Does that sound like a plan? Is their an easier way, Jim?

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2015, 01:11:19 PM »

Mark,

Your project sounds really terrific. Maybe I should send my fishtail bit to you for sharpening, sounds like you have the right skills for getting a good cutting edge!

One thing that may help with the screw plate is to get a set of number drills and use them as pin gauges. That way you can determine the thread minor diameter within a couple of mils. Then the proper shaft diameter would be just a bit larger than the minor diameter, like approximately d + 0.02 or so. However, there is certainly no easy way. When you determine the proper diameters, only tell your apprentice after threatening him to never reveal the secret!

Keep up your good work.

Jim

Curtis · « **Reply #6 on:** June 17, 2015, 12:50:49 AM »

Very cool toys there Mark! Nice finds!

Curtis

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #7 on:** June 17, 2015, 02:54:51 AM »

Actually, I was going to make screw mills when I figured the right size. Then I guess I would mark the sets with paint. I do that with my files. No paint is for iron/steel. Red is for brass and silver. White is for wood. I can get more colors of paint pens. I just had red and white in my shoot box for sights. I figure yellow, green and blue would be good colors. Just a dot will do it. If I don't do something like that, I will forget as I don't have an apprentice to remember for me. I guess I really need to get one before before my memory gets too bad.

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #8 on:** June 17, 2015, 05:40:48 AM »

Mark,

The Fry brothers, gunsmiths in Ligonier Pa, marked their tools with a somewhat bewildering array of punch marks. You can see them in these photos of their tools. I assume that these marks were decipherable to them, but not to me! Great to hear of your work with the screw plate, let us know your progress. The longer taps in the lowest photo are used to tap the holes in the lock plate for the side plate screws. You can see that these can reach all the way across from the sideplate side to form the threads in the lock plate that are often at a sight angle rather than square to the plate.

Jim

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #9 on:** June 17, 2015, 07:45:17 AM »

I just love it. Jim, you are a wonder.

JTR · « **Reply #10 on:** June 17, 2015, 09:29:22 PM »

Mark,
I have a Stubs 4 PS in almost the same condition. Like yours, there are no thread designations on it, but modern fine threaded screws screw right in, and both holes of each size seem to be exactly the same.

I wonder if yours is the same?

Here's a little history on Stubs; http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioStubs.htm

John

kaintuck · « **Reply #11 on:** June 17, 2015, 10:38:07 PM »

Jim, looks like they are marked 1,2,3,4,5,6,..........???then little holes 1,2 ~ steps?....or he had something matched to each...places these screws went in whatever he was making?

??

kinda neat they marked the hole/size for Something!

marc n tomtom

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #12 on:** June 17, 2015, 11:41:16 PM »

John,

I have a couple of Brownells screw kits. I will try them in the screw plate and let everybody know what I find.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #13 on:** June 18, 2015, 05:13:07 AM »

Here are some more photos of the screw plate, some screw cutting tests, and some metal cutting drill bits.

Here are a couple of metal cutting bits for a brace that I ground to make approximately 3/16" and 1/4" holes. I also show an 18th century type countersink that I used to counterside the hole shown in the 1/8" brass plate.

James Wilson Everett · « **Reply #14 on:** June 18, 2015, 02:20:07 PM »

Mark,

Thanks for posting your work progress. This is great. Your work looks very neat & clean, I'll bet you even sweep up your shop floor! This surely shows the high skill level needed to make even the most common of metal parts, rather than just buying them. Keep up the good work with the new toys.

Jim

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #15 on:** June 19, 2015, 04:04:39 AM »

Jim,

I like making the tools. They are discrete little projects only taking a couple hours at a time. Also, that modern knife maker's belt sander really helps.

Mark

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #16 on:** June 21, 2015, 04:29:26 AM »

I have learned the hard way that it is very easy to twist off a screw blank in this screw plate and very hard to get out the broken bit. I was able to drill out and pick out most of the metal, but some was stuck down in a thread. It is hard to clean out a 4-48 thread. I made a tap, using the smaller hole, and a screw blank which I case hardened. If I was planning to use it more than once, I would have forged it out of a piece of w-1, but using the screw blank was quick and easy. It worked just fine.

Anyway, I have learned that the screw blank needs to be smaller than I would normally think due to the expansion from swaging; and that I need to be very careful about the pressure I apply.

It is starting to look like a blank that fits in the next hole up is about the right diameter for swaging the thread in the chosen threaded hole.

DutchGramps · « **Reply #17 on:** June 21, 2015, 10:31:42 AM »

Do you use any kind of lubricant? An old toolmaker I knew had a small supply of original sperm oil that he used for delicate threading and tapping operations; he got it from a sperm whale that stranded on the North Sea beach in the Netherlands. But nowadays there must be better stuff available...

hanshi · « **Reply #18 on:** June 21, 2015, 07:45:13 PM »

These old tools are fascinating. I'm quite amazed.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #19 on:** June 21, 2015, 11:55:02 PM »

I use Tap Free for drilling and tapping.

Darrin McDonal · « **Reply #20 on:** June 22, 2015, 10:30:22 PM »

Very nice find Mark. I am envious.
Darrin

shortbarrel · « **Reply #21 on:** June 23, 2015, 12:49:45 AM »

Thanks Jim and Mark for getting my interest back into old handmade tools. Just made two taps one a little smaller than the other to make a screw plate. These taps are made like modern ones that cut. Never had much luck tapping high carbon annealed steel with a jam tap. The taps are 6-40 thread. I'll make the screw plate tomorrow. Hope the screw plate is soft enough to take the taps. BTW, what is the thickness of a screw plate from small end to large end. To not confuse anyone I make screw plates for the intended screw, not all screws.

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #22 on:** June 23, 2015, 03:18:13 PM »

My screw plate is tapered such that there are three full threads in the plate. Each hole is well countersunk on each side. So, you have to take that into account when you figure the thickness. Without actually measuring, it would seem that the pate is about 6-7 threads thick at any given point. I hope that helps.

shortbarrel · « **Reply #23 on:** June 25, 2015, 01:33:25 AM »

Mark thanks for the info on your screw plate. I have been putting six or seven full threads on a screw plate for years. The info on your screw plate makes a lot of since, less threads, less friction. Hope you are having as much fun as I am. The screw grinder and header grinder, screw plate and taps, made in the screw plate are finished. Tomorrow I'll start on the two spade drills, one about .004 smaller than the other. The only information I got 35 years ago was the Steel & Harrison book, lots of info, but you have to read between the lines. Have fun......Dick

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #24 on:** June 25, 2015, 01:44:39 AM »

Dick, I am having fun with this..... I think there must be something wrong with us.

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Author Topic: New Toys (Read 11275 times)

omark

kaintuck