Author Topic: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?  (Read 11299 times)

monro1066

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Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« on: June 23, 2015, 08:28:01 AM »
I would like opinions on re-converting back to flint.The gun I have in mind has an original "flint to percussion" in period conversion and yes would look nice reconverted back  to flint .
I am keen to hear what opinions are out there .
I am new here and am very keen to not make what seems an easy mistake of over care
on a rifle.  Personally I have learned a lot on the "Cleaning Original Longrifle  thread so far.
 Monro .
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 02:40:35 PM by Dr. Tim-Boone »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 03:32:36 PM »
I will comment on this but I am not an expert, just know how I feel about the converted flint that I have. Mine is an original flinter made by my GG Uncle Mathew Gillespie. I feel sure it is the original lock that sometime along the line, was converted to percussion. Sometime before I bought the rifle someone converted it back to flint. They did a fairly good job but I can still see where the lock plate was cut/welded to receive the donor pan/frizzen. It bothers me, kind of like a repair that I had to make on a rifle that I've built. You know the kind, probably no one but you notices it but its still there. Also the cock just crys "modern replacement" and that bothers me as well. While the outside is not terribly noticeable, when you look at the inside of the lock the re-conversion is glaring.

I don't think I would mind the re-conversion if it wasn't as noticeable, maybe done with proper donor parts. I guess what I am trying to say is either have it done properly or leave it as found.
Dennis
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 03:34:08 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 05:11:16 PM »
  Remember, often these old rifles saw more history as a percussion, than they did in their original flint ignition. I just don't feel it's right to ignore that history, just because you want an original flint rifle. I have a percussion converted Rifle that will remain so as long as I am its curator.

     Hungry Horse

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 05:22:19 PM »
Reconversion is a crime against history. It is removing evidence of genuine use. Hungry Horse, above, is quite correct when he points out that many, if not most converted guns saw far more use as percussion guns than they did as flintlocks. That said, how can anyone who purports to be interested in preserving history throw away the genuine historical parts and replace them with modern ones.

Also, are you absolutely certain the gun ever was a flintlock? The presence of a few plugged holes in the plate is not proof. When percussion came in, much earlier than most people think, no one threw a box of locks in the bin. (99.99% of locks were bought-out, hardware items.) They converted them new and used them. I've seen any number of "restored" flintlocks that were never flintlocks in the first place. If this isn't vandalism I don't know what is.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 06:14:50 PM by JV Puleo »

Offline JTR

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 07:47:41 PM »
Well, it depends, and to each his own.

First, I don’t see how anyone can honestly claim that a flint made gun could have been used as a percussion for a longer period of time, than as original flint. The flint period ran for more than 100 years, whereas the percussion period was a mere 30 years. And for Kentucky style long barrel rifles, their use was pretty well done and gone by about 1850, so their percussion use would have been closer to only 20 years because better, new, shorter, lighter and inexpensive guns were available by then. Yeah, I know, some were used longer, but most were tucked away in a barn or closet by then.

Most of the wear and tear on the wood, metal, and barrel breech on the old flinters aren’t from long honest use as a percussion, but instead, lack of care, from not cleaning the crud from the percussion caps off the gun. That’s probably the same period of use when most of the silver inlays vanished as well. Also, anyone that has been around these old guns for some time will come to realize that most of the damage we see today, was done to the gun long after its primary time of use, as a flint. Take out the sentimentality, and see what you have left for illustrious history!

That’s not to say there’s no reason to leave it as is. Some guns were well kept, used, and cared for, for many long years by many generations.
Most weren’t.
Most were tossed in a corner, forgotten, neglected, and left to the ravages of time.

So I’d asked first which of these scenario’s fits your gun, and go from there.

If you do decide to reconvert it, as mentioned above, have it done well! And realize that a good job of reconversion isn’t going to be inexpensive. Besides doing the lock work, there’s going to need to be work done on the barrel as well. A lot of guns had the barrel cut back at the breech when percussed, and any good reconversion would require adding that missing bit back to the barrel, and that in turn requires adding a bit of wood to the muzzle and addressing the underlugs and fastening to the stock.

Also, a lot of rifles had 6 inches or so whacked off the muzzle end of the barrel too, and not replacing that after reconverting back to flint, would, well, really look strange.

And doing a half-assed cheap job would be an injustice to the rifle, so to do, or not to do, can be a difficult and expensive decision.

There’s some guys here that have, and can do, an excellent job of reconversion with no sign of work either inside or out on the gun, short of an x-ray.

No mater what you decide, let’s see some pictures of your rifle!

And as JV mentioned, be sure your rifle was originally a flint. If you're not sure how to determine that, just ask.

John
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:18:14 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 08:27:48 PM »
OK here is a photo of mine:




Note the cut in the lock plate starting just behind the fence then going down to the junction of another cut about level with the top of the feather spring.

Not quite so obvious is the large "vent liner" that replaced the drum.

Dennis
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 08:28:33 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 09:27:38 PM »
Sure looks like it started out life as a flintlock, doesn't it? The cut in the wood is a good indicator by itself, but the touch hole pretty much confirms it. Also, you have too much cap blast on the barrel to have been caused by a flint gun, which points to a reconversion. Looks to be a nice gun. How about some full length photos?
Dick

Offline Molly

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2015, 12:28:58 AM »
Very interesting topic, esp in view of the recent one about "cleaning" an original rifle.  Wonder how many who said "don't mess with it as to "cleaning" will be OK with taking it back to flint?

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2015, 12:30:53 AM »
The Re-conversion parts used in the picture are all CVA stuff right down to the frizzed spring. This re-conversion wouldn't fool anybody. A little bit of creative file work would have made this re-conversion a lot less obvious. Cast in engraving is a dead give away that parts are modern made.

Hungry Horse

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2015, 01:34:55 AM »
Sure looks like it started out life as a flintlock, doesn't it? The cut in the wood is a good indicator by itself, but the touch hole pretty much confirms it. Also, you have too much cap blast on the barrel to have been caused by a flint gun, which points to a reconversion. Looks to be a nice gun. How about some full length photos?
Dick

Dick,
Its in the ALR virtual Museum at this link http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8015.0 I feel sure it was built as a flint, Earl Lanning dated it circa 1810, he has an unsigned one that appears to have had the stock cut from the same template but he thought mine was older than his. He based this partially on the "feel/looks" of the wood.
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2015, 01:55:12 AM »
Dennis, there are some fine restorers who live in your neck of the woods who have lots of original parts and could probably put the gun arights. Shouldn't be a terribly expensive effort to improve what has already been done.
It's too bad that somone got to it before you did, but I'm sure that it is still a fine gun. In this field, you have to take them as they come. You can set out to find a superb Henry, or whatever and succeed, but Ky Rifles are in their own class. Any of the guns that have come to me, that have been reconverted, were worth having for a host of reasons other than being this way, or that way.
I have had only one changed back to flint because that is the way it looked best. The rest of my pieces are 'as found' for the moment although I got lucky and some are black and grimy. One I like best is a little space age looking, Peter Angstat converted to percussion in Bedford County. It's a screamer in my opinion, and will stay  black and unreconverted for as long as I have it.
My philosophy pretty much boils down to this: buy it if you like it and if it needs some remediation, (lousy restoration, wood damage, missing parts, wrong parts, etc.), then after a lot of thought, do it, or not. Some guns just look better returned to an original appearance. I cite the Oerter, "1775 Griffin Rifle" which I saw as a percussion gun. A little later, it was switched back to flint and looks much, much better. My only hard and fast rule is: Avoid hurting the gun! My standard for this is what I think and what the general thinking in the field is. Very subjective, to be sure but it works. It wasn't too long ago that restorers were putting French locks and other 'unusual' parts into Ky Rifles. Many of the Kindig guns had such parts. Take a look at the 'George Nummamacher 1796', York County rifle in Kindig's "Thoughts…" book on rifles. Today that gun is vastly improved with wood damage repaired, a proper side plate, and lock installed. Last time it sold it went for well north of 50K. However, it is a unique gun with few others known by the maker so it makes a choice of to buy or not to buy a whole lot easier.
Dick  

Offline vtbuck223

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2015, 03:47:31 AM »
Very interesting topic, esp in view of the recent one about "cleaning" an original rifle.  Wonder how many who said "don't mess with it as to "cleaning" will be OK with taking it back to flint?

This is one example of the many "contradictions" that I mentioned in that post but did not elaborate on to spare everyone. Ironically....I agree 100% with JVP....I would never even consider returning my rifle or any of the many converted muskets I own back to flintlock.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2015, 07:58:54 PM »
First, I don’t see how anyone can honestly claim that a flint made gun could have been used as a percussion for a longer period of time, than as original flint. The flint period ran for more than 100 years, whereas the percussion period was a mere 30 years. And for Kentucky style long barrel rifles, their use was pretty well done and gone by about 1850...

I respectfully disagree here. While it is certainly true that flintlocks were with us much longer, most conversions were made to relatively new arms. One rarely sees a 17th or early 18th century gun converted for the simple reason that they were all very old by the mid 1820s when conversions became common. It was much more likely to convert a gun that was only a few years old. And, yes I realize there are exceptions but there is a reason almost all of the post-1800 Kentucky rifles were converted. They were only a few years old and too valuable to stop using.

Converted military arms fall into two categories, those with civilian conversions and those done by the government. Virtually all of the government conversions were done to unissued arms... meaning that the only real service these arms saw was as percussion. Civilian conversions are almost always the arms that were condemned and sold out of service when the conversion program began. Most of these were in excellent condition and were condemned simply because they predated 1822. They were sold in bulk to arms dealers well after percussion was an established fact and, if the dealers didn't convert them, it is very likely the first civilian owner did.

Offline Feltwad

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2015, 08:37:21 PM »
In all my years with restoration I have never believed in  reconverting percussion back to flint .The drum and nipple is part of the history of the gun and should  be left like this .I have examined several that have been done and the look out of character especially if modern casting are used most are done for one thing and that is financial gain, these people are butchering our heritage and history of the gun  we  hold them in trust for those that follow
Feltwad

Save the drum and nipple


« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 08:47:45 PM by Feltwad »

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2015, 02:41:25 AM »
Don't do it.

Original flint conversions are becoming rare

In muskets I never, never buy a reconversion.  Original percussion conversion OK

For Kentuckys one has little choice as so many have been dolled up.

I like the history of these guns. Something with modern welding & modern castings has no appeal for me. At all.

If I want a new flint rifle I'll buy one. Robert Elka, Michigan, recently made me a fine Sell copy.

Be kind to other collectors and do not destroy your rifle.

Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2015, 07:52:37 AM »
I've never owned a Kentucky rifle but I do have a dozen or so NE rifles, most converted but there are a few flintlocks in there. I barely look at reconversions and will not buy one.

Offline GrampaJack

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2015, 03:38:21 AM »
I agree but "never say never".  I own one, a 3rd model brown bess. The original lock plate was used and the parts are probably rifle shop but, the gun has all the correct "U.S." stamps in all the  right places. I would have bought it if it had been reconverted to a fanner fifty. Those of you younger than 60 will have to look that up. Jack

Offline Molly

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2015, 04:32:54 AM »
A good fanner fifty with box might be worth more than a brown bess.....someday.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2015, 04:59:27 PM »
Granpajack, do you want to buy some shoot-n-shells, and Greenie stickem caps for that fanned fifty?

     Hungry Horse

Offline GrampaJack

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Re: Reconverting from percussion to flintlock?
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2015, 01:20:43 AM »
Nope, I would probably shoot my eye out. Jack