Author Topic: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?  (Read 28811 times)

Offline Daryl

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2015, 06:06:04 PM »
I use beeswax/Vaseline for a bullet lube, along with  BP Gold and SPG, all of which have beeswax, all used in my Sharps and water-wet patches cleans out ALL of the fouling. I do not need a brush, either.

If you use a proper ball and patch combo, there is NO buildup of oil or wax in the grooves. One of these days this will perhaps, make sense.

Tap water -from the cold tap, is all that is needed for cleaning BP fouling.  If you using some form of grease or wax that is building up in the bore, you are doing it wrong.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 06:09:25 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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benjaminh123

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2015, 06:08:55 PM »
I realize you don't need boiling water; that just seems to be the traditional method, though I don't really know the reasoning behind it

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2015, 06:10:14 PM »
Must not have found out how to search yet.  (assistance at the end)

From my experience and the thousands of posts I've read here at the ALR, "boiling" water is certainly not called for.  Many folks report excessive flash rusting from using heated water, but none from using un-heated water.  I like my water about room temperature such that it doesn't chill the bbl and inhibit cleaning.  

Water is all the solvent necessary, but many do prefer to add this or that to their water, which may or may not be beneficial according to some of the science behind the soaps and residues likely from them.  

I've only used beeswax for finish work on my wood.  I have used tallow for reloading while hunting, but only because I didn't have my loading block with oil-lubed patches.  I use saliva for most target shooting and plinking.

Good clean tallow is great for "greasing down" the pan for wind/water proofing.  I smear it around the lock for weather protection in damp weather.  

I use bear oil inside the lock, water (not hot) with tow (never patches or brushes) for bore cleaning.  WDforty for water displacement, then some sort of oil (bear, CLP, etc) for long-term storage or damp weather conditions, but mostly +nothing+ after that because clean metal kept indoors really doesn't rust much.

The only definitive answer for what you should use will come from your own trials and conclusions.  There are no absolutes.  We can give you 40 different ways to clean and protect your gun, you'll have to decide what works best for you.  Everyone who sells a product is financially invested in making sure you understand how wonderful their product is and what great things it can do for you.  I steer clear of products that require promotion, hence water, tow, bear oil.  There is no universal fitsall perfect product, no matter what they try to sell you.  Each shooter is different.  

What methods of cleaning and protecting have you used? What doesn't work for you?  Why not try some traditional stuff?  See how that works?


Here are some search engine results, ALR site specific:

"cleaning"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3aamericanlongrifles.org+%22cleaning%22&qs=HS&pq=site&sc=8-4&sp=1&cvid=0ca2e6d2b8434f258e9c36f8ad393156&FORM=QBLH

"bore cleaning"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aamericanlongrifles.org+%22bore+cleaning%22&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=site%3Aamericanlongrifles.org+%22bore+cleaning%22&sc=8-43&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=19d1ea972b6b4e1ba57930b577ff801c

"rust prevention"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aamericanlongrifles.org+%22rust+prevention%22&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=site%3Aamericanlongrifles.org+%22rust+prevention%22&sc=8-45&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=cd9c2f9e9fca4d71b8c0cbff92375f77

and everybody's favorite: "patch lube"

https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aamericanlongrifles.org+%22patch+lube%22&qs=n&form=QBRE&pq=site%3Aamericanlongrifles.org+%22patch+lube%22&sc=5-40&sp=-1&sk=&cvid=f7c9a6391a2c4dc4a0b0201679aaa9a8
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 06:24:29 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2015, 06:18:22 PM »
benjaminh123 - the boiling water cleaning method was written up many years ago by someone writing a book when he should have been learning the sport first, before expounding all his nonsense - not merely writing everything that came into their minds for "pay per word" writing.  As the late John Baird told me, he's writing all he can to feed his family and he's on a long learning streak, cut him some slack.  Because this was written in a book or magazine, it was copied in other books by beginning writers and thus another 'Old Wife's Tale' was born - purely out of ignorance, not knowing or leaning before the "grandstanding".
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 06:20:26 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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benjaminh123

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2015, 08:07:21 PM »
Thanks for all your help; looking back through some of the older threads, I am realizing that there are as many (or more) patch lube preferences as there are people shooting. I think Wades advice is good, and I think I'll be heading out to the range soon and experimenting.

Offline Dewey

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2015, 09:02:47 PM »
I realize you don't need boiling water; that just seems to be the traditional method, though I don't really know the reasoning behind it

I always thought that it heats the barrel to let it dry quicker/more completely ???

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2015, 09:20:36 PM »
I really dislike the boiling water treatment.  In my experience the barrel usually flash rusts before it can be oiled. 

For hunting Mink Oil is best unless it is hot as we sometimes see in South Central Texas.

For rust preventative, I am currently using RemOil and having good results.  When ready to shoot a quick wipe with an alcohol patch works.
TC
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Offline Dewey

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2015, 09:20:45 PM »
Ned Roberts talks about using hot water for cleaning  (was told  this when he  a boy) . His book was published in 1940, so the hot water technique must have been in use from at least 1900 and probably dates to well before that. See p 179 of "The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle".

Offline Daryl

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2015, 04:44:37 AM »
The man I speak of said boiling water.

Ned used iron barrels that needed re-freshing (rifling re-cut) often?  Anyone suggest why?

Holland and Holland - the OLD English Gun Making Firm, makers of "best" quality muzzleloading guns, single rifles, single shotguns, double rifles, double shotguns,  and bolt actioned modern-type guns as well, wrote my friend in Smithers and told him to NEVER use hot water or boiling water for cleaning his muzzleloading or black powder cartrige shooting rifles and shotguns. They told him he would flash rust the gun's bores and the effects were accumulative - just as we've found out ourselves from friend's guns. These were friends who have not believed our attempts to pass on this knowledge from Holland and Holland.
Will, my friend now gone from us this last winter, had double rifles and double shotguns, ctg. and one 6 bore double 6 bore ball and shot gun made by H&H as well as a number of other British makers of the mid to late 1800's - he always sent a 'new acquisition' to H&H for refurbishing and re-proofing as well as having a new leather and brass bound gun case made for it.

 It was their correspondence to him that I read and which methods of cleaning, I have chosen to duplicate myself in all my guns that shoot BP.  They were right - cold water dissolves BP fouling - it does this in $20,000 to $60,000 dollar guns just fine and it seems to clean my $500.00 to $3,000.00 guns just fine too. Never rusted a bore since I switched to cold water.
 
They noted that boiling hot water has a glazing effect on powder fouling buildup on the breech plugs.

Ever wonder why some of us do not need a breech plug scraper and some do?

The Holland and Holland I spoke of above, is NOT the NEW US firm who makes muzzleloader barrels. They are NOT affiliated with each other in any way to the best of my knowledge.
Daryl

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benjaminh123

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2015, 06:46:00 AM »
How well would olive oil/beeswax work for rust prevention? I'm sure it wouldn't stand up to modern lubricants in extreme tests, but in real life, a barrel is not being rained on for 2 weeks; generally it is in a relatively non-humid environment.

I am just wondering what they used to do in the days before modern chemical lubricants. Did they just accept rust as a given and rebore?

Offline Maven

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2015, 03:37:38 PM »
Years ago I owned a book about the U.S. Springfield Rifle (1861), which also contained U.S. Army instructions for maintaining the wood finish, the bright finish on the bbl., as well as cleaning the bore.  The procedure called for "tepid" water, not hot or boiling water, to soak and flush it.  Drying and oiling it was the final step, of course.
Paul W. Brasky

Offline Daryl

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2015, 11:59:39 PM »
Rifles with iron barrels required frequent 'freshing' of the rifling.  This should answer how well they were maintained. We know they wore from shooting and of course, would become quite pitted from rust. Perhaps Ned's not water was also a cause - certainly seems as if it would be, from what we know today about barrel care.
Daryl

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C. Cash

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2015, 07:03:06 AM »
For patch lubes:  mink oil for hunting or when it will be left loaded for any time.  Lehigh valley for target work.  To clean I use 1/2 ballistol mixed with 1/2 water.  For bore protection I use Ballistol full strength.  It is not a long term protector in humid weather so take it down every few week an run a patch through it.  I've had no trouble and use it on all firearms now.    PS:  I got flash rust on my TC Renegade with water(it was not even warm let alone hot).  Not a usual occurrence I know but it drove me to mix the water with Ballistol.  Never had flash rust since.
 
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 07:23:50 AM by C. Cash »

Offline Frizzen

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2015, 05:20:53 PM »
Boiling water causes flash rust, then you have to get the flash rust off ???  Just use plain old room temp
water. Lukewarm won't hurt, but NO hotter.
The Pistol Shooter

Online Hungry Horse

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2015, 05:43:25 PM »
I see a lot of people recommending bees wax as an additive in patch lube. I would recommend using bees wax in very small amount, if at all. It can plug up flash channels, in percussion guns, and is prone to leave residue in the barrel. Venison, or mutton tallow mixed with bear oil, or even olive oil, works best for me.

    Hungry Horse

Naphtali

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2015, 01:16:21 AM »
I have shot only cast conical bullets lubricated with SPG. I have not removed my breech plug. I have never used a brush on rifled barrels and have detected no reduction of accuracy, or ease of loading, or ease of cleaning. My "ace in the hole" is an extremely fortunately shaped bathroom tub. The detached barrel with nipple removed is force fed hot water until I get tired. I follow with patches soaked in Wipe Out (I think a Rusty Duck product??) that I let sit for perhaps 10 minutes while I futz with everything else. More hot water is followed by pieces of paper towel inserted in a shotgun's patch holder-cleaner. This is followed by modest amount of BreakFree CLP. I finish up after about 15-minute "break" by using dry patches to remove any excess BreakFree CLP from I.D. of barrel, including nipple threads. I have had no initial shot misfires or hangfires from this procedure - over a 5-year period.

A similar, abbreviated procedure is used on lock and external steel hardware. Renaissance Wax goes on exterior wood.

Hope this helps.
   

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2015, 04:39:03 AM »
I also made up a flushing kit to use in the field if I'm out for a couple of days. Small plastic jar (holds about a quart of water) with a surgical tube through the lid and a 1/4 X 28 adapter on the tube to replace the nipple. Fill the jar with water and pump it through the barrel. Good way to flush out the breach area as well as the nipple hole and flash channel. Just like using a mop sink, toilet or tub at home.
Mark
Mark

Naphtali

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2015, 02:23:00 AM »
Since most responders to this thread appear to believe hot water as a barrel cleaning agent causes rust in bore, is it possible that this flash rust in bore pertains at least to a large extent upon the barrel's steel - that is, uncomplex materials such as 1137, 12L14, et al. are prone to flash rusting while [some] complex alloy steels do not exhibit this tendency?

I cannot identify another reason why I have not experienced flash rust - that is, I am no more lucky than any other former high-stakes stud poker player, nor have I been singled out for special treatment (of a good kind).

benjaminh123

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2015, 03:15:52 AM »
I have been a bit confused about the hot water vs cold water. Sam Fadala in The Black Powder Handbook says that hot water is definitely better than cold, because it heats the barrel so it drys quickly, preventing rust. Most on this forum say not to use hot water.

Offline Standing Bear

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2015, 04:17:08 PM »
The difference may be one of degree(s) of hot. Hot water as in shower temperature is very different than boiling water. While I use tap water from the cold spigot I would not shy from water from the hot spigot.  No boiling water thanks, learned not to do that 40+ years ago.
TC
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C. Cash

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2015, 05:06:51 PM »
Since most responders to this thread appear to believe hot water as a barrel cleaning agent causes rust in bore, is it possible that this flash rust in bore pertains at least to a large extent upon the barrel's steel - that is, uncomplex materials such as 1137, 12L14, et al. are prone to flash rusting while [some] complex alloy steels do not exhibit this tendency?

I cannot identify another reason why I have not experienced flash rust - that is, I am no more lucky than any other former high-stakes stud poker player, nor have I been singled out for special treatment (of a good kind).

I think you are right.....there must be a factor here.  Cleaning the barrel on a t/c renegade with Cool water, I would get flash rust without fail.  Never happens on my Green Mountain barreled long rifles.  I have always suspected the steel make up had something to do with it.

Offline smokinbuck

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2015, 05:27:50 PM »
The first and best thing to do with Sam Fadala's handbook is to throw it away. IMHO.
Mark
Mark

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2015, 05:44:56 PM »
I cleaned a rifle yesterday.  Used just regular old tap water.  I'd guess the temp was maybe 70 to 75 degrees.  I experienced what some would probably call "flash rust".  I have used warm/hot water, not "boiling".  I also experienced "flash rust".  But to me rust is rust.  Water (among other things) causes rust (aka oxidation).  Personally, I'm hard pressed to see that the temp of the water has anything to do with it but rather the length of time the barrel is "wet" (damp, etc.).

So maybe someone can provide a scientific explanation of why hot water causes "flash rust" but cold water does not.  I do not avoid hot water in cleaning it just happens that where I clean it takes a little running to have the hot water arrive at the tap, so I use what comes out first.  Personally, it seems to me this is one of those topics that every expert has their opinions on and no body will change their views.  Now, pardon me while I move my chair.  I'm getting dangerously near the edge of the earth and am fearful of falling off.

Offline Molly

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2015, 06:01:55 PM »
OK, I just did some ADDITIONAL googling around.  Still nothing suggesting that the temp of the water has anything to do with "flash rust".  Believe it or not there is a web site called flashrust.org

They give a good definition of it, define what causes it, how to address or correct it as well as differentiate between other sorts of "rust".  They do note a factor is "temperature" but it is not the water temperature but the environmental temperature in which the object sits after exposure to the agent (water).

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Patch Lube, Bore Cleaner, Bore rust preventative recommendations?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2015, 08:46:44 PM »
Molly,
The only thing I will add, (and by the way, I am a anti-boiling water person), is that EVERY chemical reaction (I.e.rust) is accelerated by an increase in temperature.
Rust is a chemical reaction, thus in theory, would be accelerated by heat.

Boiling water heats up The barrel, and by that premise, would accelerate the process.

Grab your chair!!!
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Dane