Thoughts regarding documenting and grading antique arms

[DaveM]

The recent board discussions bring up a number of very interesting points.  I wonder if this hobby may benefit in the future by unbiased standardized documentation and grading of a piece.  I would think that real experts would see 99% of alterations if they study and disassemble a piece.  While obviously a gun cannot be "encapsulated" like a coin, it could be taken apart, studied and photo documented with a one or two page summary, detailed photos, and overall grade - could also note questionable aspects even if not certain.  For example, if an appropriate group / grading company (kind of like PCGS for coins) were created that were qualified, independent and unbiased with a focus on the historical aspects of a piece, a gun could be submitted for a fee, graded by things such as percent original metal, percent original wood, originality of metal finish and patina, originality of wood finish and patina, originality of bore, originality of markings and decorations, whether "cleaned" (like graded coins are noted as such).  I know flayderman touches on some of these things, in a guideline sort of way. It sounds like many collectors speaking out on this forum also apply their own "rules" but there is no standardization.  Further, a converted gun lock could then be graded as "original", the conversion being historical, graded much higher than reconverted but not as high as original flint.

If such a system were used, the photo documentation would be kept on file in a database by the grading company - that way in the future it could serve as a reference for at least how a piece later altered looked at the time that it was documented. 

possibly as a result truly original pieces (for example guns not touched since converted almost 200 years ago) could see values increase substantially.  In a way it would even bring value and historical importance to altered pieces, because someone at least would have an idea of what they are buying without relying on a seller - and others could focus study on aspects of an altered gun documented to be original.  Could even introduce many new collectors into the field - those that stay away currently because of these very issues.  Would like to hear others' thoughts on whether something like this could be practical / helpful or not.  Would any of you collectors be willing to submit an important gun for something like this?

[spgordon]

I am eager to read responses to this!

[JV Puleo]

Guns are a heck of a lot more complicated than coins and have a much shorter collecting history. I very much doubt any group of more than two collectors could even agree on what was important, much less establish some sort of "baseline" that they could be graded according to. The NRA has (or had) a "collector's grading system"... very simple and essentially useless.

Even something as simple as condition is highly subjective. To me, the best rifle in the world that has been reconverted or had the lock replaced is in less than desirable condition. To someone whose interest is the overall architecture, carving, engraving etc., these may well be of only peripheral interest.

Also, you seem to presume most collectors want things to be examined closely. I'd say there are a great many of them who want just the opposite, at least when they are selling.

In the antique car world a system of numbers is used... things are rated from #1 to #5, with #1 being a fabulous far-better-than-new "restoration" that is never driven and hardly ever started lest a tiny bit of oil leak out. A #5 would be something pulled up from the bottom of a river. All this is a huge waste of time, because how can you use the same basic criteria to compare a 1970 Corvette to a 1900 Panhard? It sounds to me like a huge waste of time.

[jdm]

I personally don't see how that would work. The value of these is based on so many different aspects other than restoration, replaced parts , original parts , new finish, old finish. Like art. Some are a thing of beauty to one and not that interesting to another. There are not twenty thousand John Rupps around to chose from.  The Rupp can't be compared to a barn gun. A Colt single action can be graded based on condition of other Colts of the same model. Evan grading a Colt single action is hard. A worn out no finish Custer era gun can be worth more than a pristine late model. 
Have any of you ever tried grading a women ? ( No offense Molly I'M sure gals have done this too.). Ten being the best. WE all have a different ten. Do we take away points for implants? Not original hair color? Add points for kindness, inner beauty and compassion. Where could we find an impartial judge?
In many cases on a longrifle artistic merit and rarity will trump replaced wood, stretched barrel and a replaced lock.

There is no book of gun vales for Kentucky's. It would be nice if it were that easy. I don't think those books really work on any items. Things go up, down and side ways at the whim of buyers. Some knowledgeable, some not. I personally think the best grading system is knowledge. Study them. Hold them. Know the gunsmiths work. Learn to spot repairs. Hit all the shows you can and handle all the old rifles you find .Talk with fellow collectors and play with there toys.


I got to quit having that evening drink before I write these posts. Sorry.   JIM

[Molly]

Nice thought but seems impractical to attempt.  In my experience with "appraisals" for artwork and antiques  you have to put the object before the person doing the evaluation.  They will not work from photos and no photo nor written description is considered adequate.  Complexity logistically is enough to kill the plan and then there is that matter of cost...

[mr. no gold]

This idea has been floated before in the collecting fraternity, and, as far as I know has been turned down. The major issue seems to be one of liability. No one wants to certify something that might later be found to be greatly deficient. Makes good sense to me. A Paterson Colt is such an example: imagine being on an appraisal board and putting a million dollar price on it, only to hear from the owner's attorney sometime down the road that the gun is a fake, or mickey moused! Good luck! You have legally identified yourself as an expert who can be expected to render an accurate appraisal. You will be called on to accept responsibility.
Dick

[JV Puleo]

Well put. I personally know of a famous pair of cased, engraved Colt Dragoons that have since been identified as Belgian... certainly of the period but not actually made by Colt. They were sold for a very large amount of money and the auctioneer had to refund the money and take them back. The state of knowledge in this area is constantly changing. In my own case, my Ketland research, as yet unpublished, shows that a number of previously acknowledged Revolutionary War-era arms cannot possibly be that old. Even if someone, or a group of people were completely up-to-date in their knowledge of ongoing research (and this is impossible), in a year or two some of their conclusions would have to be revised.

[mr. no gold]

Joe, please, please, please publish that Ketland book!!! I will buy the first copy off the press. Been waiting for it since it was first mentioned in a 'Man at Arms' article a number of years ago. You will add a ton of new and useful information on American gun making, and no doubt demolish some cherished beliefs, as you briefly touch on in your post above. PS Why don't you ever come to Vegas with Stuart for the January show?
Dick

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

Do we dare start a thread like antique furniture by Israel Sack: "Features that are good, better, best"....notice tnere is no "bad" and see what folks thing all the good features are other than all original?
ex:
Barrel: Length : Greater than 40 inches ( better)  Not stretched (Good) Imperceptably stretched ( Better) Signed ( Best), etc  Completely original ( not cut) with sights (Best)

Given some expert thought the characteristic least and most desirable of each import aspect of the Kentucky can be organzied into meaningful information.

Hurricane

[JV Puleo]

Joe, please, please, please publish that Ketland book!!! I will buy the first copy off the press. Been waiting for it since it was first mentioned in a 'Man at Arms' article a number of years ago. You will add a ton of new and useful information on American gun making, and no doubt demolish some cherished beliefs, as you briefly touch on in your post above. PS Why don't you ever come to Vegas with Stuart for the January show?
Dick

Dick... Unfortunately, making a living keeps interveneing. However, the current schedule is this... I have a huge project I'm just finishing and another short one following. I am refusing all new work until the K book is either done or at least sell underway. If its any consulation, I keep finding new, interesting stuff but I will not fall into the typical author's trap of never finishing because something new might come along. Nothing like this is ever complete...
As for Las Vegas, I'm usually in the UK when Stuart is in Las Vegas.

jp

[mr. no gold]

Joe, so be it then. But, kindly do not wait too long. I am an old man. hopefully getting older. I have some rifles with Ketland locks of relatively undeterminable age and I am confident that your efforts can put a year to each, with a reasonable margin, of course. Thank you for the reply, and do plan on making it out to the Winter show sometme.
Dick

[JV Puleo]

Do I have photos of your rifles? If not, I'd like to get some.

jp

[DaveM]

Oh well - i guess this would go over like a led balloon based on these comments. Interesting that this list of reasons given is likely the same reasons why this hobby may never enjoy "investor" status on a broader level 

[Molly]

What would the original makers think!  I can see them setting around the camp fire rolling with laughter.  All they ever wanted to do was build a gun with sufficient character and style that they could sell it and make a profit AND that it would do the job for which it was intended.  And today we want to classify, evaluate, analyze, criticize, compare and study them.  Oh yes, and TRY to duplicate them!

[DaveM]

Molly, you said it!  They would think we were all nuts!

[Molly]

But is sure is FUN, right Dave!  Nothing more worthwhile to lose your sanity over that longrifles!

[mr. no gold]

DaveM, don't be misled! Antique weapons are serious investments and many savvy people put their money into fine arms. Colts and Winchesters and their relatives seem to be the more sought after, but KY Rifles among many others are included. There are many investors in Arabia, Japan, Europe, and elsewhere in the world. Once many years ago whem the economy was down, the Wall Street Journal advised investors to put their money into good Italian fowling guns. We are talking pieces that can go up to 100k here at that time, and apparently some insurance companies and other corporate interests did much the same. Arms are a whole lot more fun than a stock certificate or a municipal bond.
Dick

[DaveM]

Dick, that is encouraging to hear, I was getting depressed!  How do those investors judge their big purchases?  Do they hire professionals to assess them? Rely on auction house experts? 

[Molly]

"Fun", yes.  "Investments", NO.  Now I would not be surprised if The Donald might not have a few hanging on the walls somewhere. I know Jim Justice, owner of the Greenbrier and candidate for WV Gov does.   The Donald recently claims a worth of about 8 billion.  Justice is only worth a couple billion. But few regular people should be considering such "investments"  I think a case could better be made for buying a few barrels of some of that exotic distilled product I sampled when in Lexington last year.  I think it was offered at maybe $10,000 a barrel....or was it $100,000 a barrel.  Excuse me now, I need another beer.

Maybe this is the WSJ article.  There is always a market for high end objects of any kind.  (How about Michael Jackson's glove!)  Now all you have to do is find something, like a Springfield carbine with a ser # linked to Custer, buy it for a few bucks, confirm it is the real deal and sell it for tens of thousands.  Not your every day happening and guns like those in the article are not where 99.9% of the population should put their future.

 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443854204578058571586497946

[mr. no gold]

Not the same one, although I like this one better. The one I referred to was published in the 1970s.
Dick

[JV Puleo]

Oh well - i guess this would go over like a led balloon based on these comments. Interesting that this list of reasons given is likely the same reasons why this hobby may never enjoy "investor" status on a broader level 

Is this something you would want? Personally, I don't give a @!*% about the "investment" aspect and the last thing I'd want is a situation where only the very wealthy can afford to own these things and the rest of us have to be satisfied with copies, photographs and, if we're lucky, access to some collection. As to guns being a good investment, I have my doubts. They certainly aren't a liquid investment. In my experience the investors have to depend on outside experts to tell them what to buy... all well and good provided the market goes up but sometimes it doesn't. In the period 1890–1925 early armor was considered a gilt-edged investment. Clarence Mackay, William Randolf Hearst and others spent huge amounts on fine suits of armor, especially in the aftermath of WWI when many aristocratic collections were broken up. By the late 30s the same items were selling for about 10% of what they paid.

[DaveM]

JV, that is a really great point. For someone like me, I do feel lucky when I can inexpensively find an interesting piece, or relic, since my passion is more the history of it.

[JV Puleo]

 Do they hire professionals to assess them? Rely on auction house experts?  

They all (or nearly all) rely on paid expertise and there have been several cases in the last few years of "big name" experts going to prison for defrauding their clients. They get paid a percentage of the purchase price, which means that, even if honest, they have no interest at all in getting their clients the best possible deal. This is no different than the international art market which, itself, is fraught with "ethical difficulties." You might also consider the several major auctions of very high-end items in the last 2 or 3 years where almost nothing sold. Apparently the stuff hadn't appreciated quite as much as someone thought. I'm strongly reminded of the "million-dollar Luger."

Anyone who relies on auction house descriptions to dictate their purchases deserves whatever they get. Frankly, I see the whole thing as the dark underside of collecting, where perceived profit is the only motive. I can't even begin to imagine why something like this would be in the best interests of 99.99% of us.

[jdm]

I've always felt that collecting as an investment was a good way to lose your rear. When investor's get involved in any collecting field they screw it up . They can create artificial highs and when the prices come down to normal people say the hobby is doomed .
 I personally collect for the love of the item . The love of history. To hold a piece of history and own it even for a shot while.  I've saved ,traded, searched and paid on time for some of these items. For the love of it!
That being said I try and do my home work. I buy what I like .Pay a price that I can live with . At least most of the time. When it's all said and done if I break even good. If I make a little great! Ether  way it was a joy.

[Molly]

JV and jdm make excellent points.  I don't want "investors" messing up a market already subject to outside influences but it would be much worse with active investors at every turn.  And I also weigh what I would pay against my desire to own and ability to pay.  I only have one original but it's sort of a local rifle by a local maker.  Condition is not all that good but it is still very attractive.  As a well respected authority said, it's an honest piece.  One that stood loaded behind the door of the cabin and went out every time the owner went out.  It has provided food for the family and guarded them from all the perils of the day.  No telling how many times it saved a life or took one.  These are the instruments that won our liberties.  I'm still always looking for another one in better condition maybe made by a better known nearer maker but for now it's my treasure.  It hangs proudly over the mantel.  It's an honor to be the current custodian.