Brush or no brush

[C. Cash]

No brush.

[Candle Snuffer]

When I do a cleaning for one of my muzzle loading firearms that will be stored for an extended period of time (more then a day) I brush. I always have and always will.

[Molly]

I'm solidly in your camp "Candle".  Also use one to clean the toilet bowls.  Different one of course but nothing works like a brush.  I will add however that we brush people are somewhat outnumbered by the no brush people but THEY ALL HAVE DIRTY BORES!  yuck!!

[RonC]

I just did an experiment on a Lyman Mountain Rifle in 54 cal and an older, what I think is a TVM flintlock in 45 cal.

Fired 9 shots through the 54 cal and 10 rounds through the Flintlock.
I did not clean the rifles between the shots and it became tough to ram the ball and patch down the flintlock for the last shots.

Immediately after shooting, I poured a dish soap/water mixture down the barrels and let the black water pour out of the touch hole or nipple hole. Then I poured more water/soap in the barrels and let it sit for about 2 minutes and poured it out. That was followed by several cleaning patch-jag wipes until the patches were coming out mostly clean.

I transported the rifles home, a trip of about 40 minutes, and cleaned both rifles with water that had a few drops of dish detergent in it. The cleaning consisted of pushing a jag and patch down and back out of the bore, changing the patch, and doing it again. Each rifle took about 4 patches before the patches came out looking clean. Then I did a wipe with a patch that had Ballistol on it and a wipe to clean out whatever the Ballistol dissolved or suspended.

I ran my inexpensive (Harbor Freight Tools) bore scope down each barrel. The bores were shiny and clean looking. However, there were significant dots of dark debris in the corners of the rifling grooves of both rifles. It was worse in the flintlock.

The next step was to use a nylon bore brush. After suffering a stuck bronze bore brush, I will use only a nylon type. After five, down and back scrubs with the nylon bore brush, I used the scope again. Most of the dark debris lodged in the sharp corners was gone.

Perhaps the corner debris was harmless and the nylon brushing unnecessary  ....  or not. I don't want to leave that residual in the bore to find out if it effects the bore.
Ron

[Candle Snuffer]

That's the main reason I brush, RonC.

[Daryl]

We flush water into and out of the bores from a container - drawing it in through the vent or nipple seat then flushing it out same way, then the flushing action along with a tight double thickness flannel patch removes ALL of the fouling - thus we do not need a brush - there is NO fouling left in the corners nor on or around the breech plug.

1 patch to clean and 4 or 5 for drying and oiling. They all are reusable.

[Molly]

I read things like that Daryl and yet when I discuss it with fellow shooters on one will admit to a rifle coming clean with such little effort.  I have one of those "cleaning tools" that fits over the touch hole.  Put a patch on a jag and also add an oiled patch to keep it from getting saturated but it still does and it seems to me that it never draws in sufficient water to fill the barrel, water saturates the patch and it diminishes the suction.  As to checking with a bore light, I always find mine looking good but with 42 or 44 inches of barrel it's pretty much impossible to really see all the way down.  I also wonder how some people define a "clean patch".  To me, it's one that looks like it has never been used. 

[Candle Snuffer]

My acid test (so to speak) is that on the following day after a cleaning (with the brush / both square & round bottom rifling) I run a dry clean patch down the bore. They've always came as white as they went in.

What ever the method used by each shooter that works is the way to go. 

[Daryl]

I read things like that Daryl and yet when I discuss it with fellow shooters on one will admit to a rifle coming clean with such little effort.  I have one of those "cleaning tools" that fits over the touch hole.  Put a patch on a jag and also add an oiled patch to keep it from getting saturated but it still does and it seems to me that it never draws in sufficient water to fill the barrel, water saturates the patch and it diminishes the suction.  As to checking with a bore light, I always find mine looking good but with 42 or 44 inches of barrel it's pretty much impossible to really see all the way down.  I also wonder how some people define a "clean patch".  To me, it's one that looks like it has never been used. 

Your cleaning patch is not thick enough. It has to be wet or it will not seal the bore. Some water will get past it and they helps seal as you withdraw it up the bore - that is normal. The oiled patch you add is superfluous - not needed - have no idea how or why you came up with that idea of trying to clean with water and oil at the same time.  No wonder you can't get it clean.  The oil will not disolve BP fouling, but instead will make it difficult to get the fouling out.  You need a tighter patch. Wet it first - it must be WET to work as a seal.

We dunk the end of the barrel in the container of water for cleaning.  Perhaps I failed to explain that. Water is sucked into then pumped out of the barrel with a doubled flannelette patch on a jag - over and over and over again. Jags are sized appropriately to allow a doubled patch. This is especially important with deep groove barrels. an electric drill held in a bench vice can act as a lathe for filing the jab smaller if needed.

Done use jags with brass threads - those will break. Centre-drill, thread to 8x32 or 10x32 and replace the brass threads with steel ones cut from an 8x32 or 10x32 machine screw.

People who use or have used some of the phony powders in past years - or have failed in other ways to keep the barrel worms at bay (rusting causing pitting, or flash rusting causing pitting, probably cannot get their barrels clean any other way - yet still refuse to remove the barrel for cleaning. Others seem to get their barrels clean with other methods. One is to plug the vent or nipple seat, then fill the barrel with clear water. Let it sit, then with a patched jag, blast the water out the vent or nipple seat.  The hard flow of water will clean the fouling off the plug and interior of the barrel. Just letting the dirty water run out does not use the forces of pressurized water to assist in cleaning. The fil land let sit is done 3 to 5 times and the barrel will actually come out pretty clean - that way - but - generally not as clean as the pumping method noted above.

By the sound of your description, you are using to loose a patch. What is the OILED patch for? - first time I've ever heard of that - I have one of those gizmos and stopped using it due to problems with taking to long to suck in enough water each stroke to FILL the bore. It still did it but took longer than I wanted.

As far as talking to people who say they cannot get their barrels clean - well, that is why one ALWAYS inspects the interior of a ML before buying it - too many people do not clean their guns very well - many of them use Pyrodex or other perchlorate powders  and most people you talk to also think they have to wipe the bores while shooting because they get powder fouling buildup. We don't wipe and we know how to clean our bores and the methods we've mentioned work for ALL of us. None of us has difficulty loading - and many of us, including my daughter and wife use the same snug combinations we do - requiring no wiping while shooting and barrels get removed and cleaned after using them. Works for us  as Candle Snuffer noted.

I never said there was little effort - but cleaning a ML barrel by the methods we use, gets them clean of all fouling. It takes only one doubled patch for cleaning,  - many strokes of sucking the water in and pumping it out again - but only one doubled patch. IT only takes 4 or 5 doubled patches for drying - THEN the bore is sprayed VERY liberally with WD40, then that is patched out- blasting WD40 out the vent or nipple seat- don't point the vent or nipple seat towards your trousers! For us, we're almost done- that WD40 patch is used to wipe down the outside of the barrel, it is returned to the stock then stored muzzle down.  The lock is cleaned with a toothbrush and water, then blown  quite dry with compressed air, then liberally sprayed with WD40, then flown off again, then wiped down of excess, then replaced on the gun.

No- the WD40 does not make a film on anything. Tired of hearing that. I've been cleaning by the method noted above since 1972- NONE of my barrels (aside from the one form 1974 that I used Pyrodex home made Chlorate percussion caps in) has any roughness or pitting - they all shine like polished steel if the plugs are removed & they are pointed at a light bulb. No fouling, no pits.

Works for us.

[RonC]

So, I take it that you unpin your barrels each time for cleaning?
As a relatively new muzzleloader enthusiast (4 years), I have avoided removing the pins frequently because I have read that it will enlarge the holes and sometime chip the far end of the stock when re-inserted.
I do remove my mountain rifle barrels because it is so easy to pop out and insert the barrel key.
Ron

[Daryl]

We all removed our longrifle barrels for cleaning - except maybe LB?  If the pins are removed from the same side each time, and the corners are rounded, no chips. One must be careful, of course.

LB uses the "plug" the vent, fill with water, let side, flush that out (blasting it out the vent), repeat until clean - usually 3 or 4 times. I have used that method at Rendezvous often as the breaks while letting the cool or cold water dissolve the fouling inside, allows time for having an adult beverage.
This method used more patches, normally.

[smokinbuck]

Daryl's comments +1. I have used an almost identical proceedure since the 60's (19 not 18) and it works. Can't see a reason to fix something that isn't broken.
Mark

[Dennis Glazener]

Others seem to get their barrels clean with other methods. One is to plug the vent or nipple seat, then fill the barrel with clear water. Let it sit, then with a patched jag, blast the water out the vent or nipple seat.  The hard flow of water will clean the fouling off the plug and interior of the barrel. Just letting the dirty water run out does not use the forces of pressurized water to assist in cleaning. The fil land let sit is done 3 to 5 times and the barrel will actually come out pretty clean - that way - but - generally not as clean as the pumping method noted above.

Guess this fits into this thread. I use the method Daryl describes above. No question it work well but here is the only thing I dislike about it and if someone has a solution I would love to hear it. I use a round toothpick in the touch home, fill barrel with cold water, let sit then if I am at my range I lay my rifle on the bench, lock hanging off the edge of the bench, protecting it with old blanket or similiar. I pull the tooth pick and ram the jag/patch down and blow all the water fouling etc out the vent hole. My problem is when I am shooting where no bench is around, I normally sit the rifle on its butt and follow the same procedures. I always manage for some of the dirty water/fouling to run down the comb of the stock and leave a stain that I have been unable to completely get out! Since its my beat-up hunting rifle it hasn't bothered me much but on my other rifles I don't want this. How do you all keep the fouled water from getting all over the stock? Don't tell me to pull the barrel, ain't going to happen until the end of the year, if then!
Dennis

[Molly]

Dennis:  Rather than a tooth pick get some small bamboo skewers such as those used for cooking strips of possum on the grill.  You should find them in the kitchen dept of most major dept stores.  Bamboo will not soak up the water like a tooth pick wood does, they are generally more pointed and yet have a larger diameter once you get past the point and they are tougher.  Not likely to fracture if you put too much pressure on them and if they do they still tend to hold together so you can easily pull it out.  BTW, I'll put a little oil on the point to make it even LESS likely to to soak up water and get soft.

[Dennis Glazener]

Rather than a tooth pick get some small bamboo skewers such as those used for cooking strips of possum on the grill.  You should find them in the kitchen dept of most major dept stores.  Bamboo will not soak up the water like a tooth pick wood does, they are generally more pointed and yet have a larger diameter once you get past the point and they are tougher.  Not likely to fracture if you put too much pressure on them and if they do they still tend to hold together so you can easily pull it out.  BTW, I'll put a little oil on the point to make it even LESS likely to to soak up water and get soft.

I use the round toothpicks and there is no problem sealing or soaking up the water. I have left one in for close to an hour with no leaks. The problem comes when I  jerk the toothpick out and quickly ram the rr/patch down the bore. Until the full pressure gets up in the barrel the vent dribbles and again when the pressure falls off (rr/patch bottoms out) water dribbles down the stock.
Dennis

[Stormrider51]

Dennis,  I was taught the "remove the barrel and flush with water" method by my father back in 1959 and that's what I did until a few years ago.  I was trying out some of Dutch Schoultz ideas for using Ballistol.  My wife and I had recently moved to the country where I could shoot as often as I like.  That's several times a week and doing a complete tear down for cleaning each time was getting burdensome.  Anyway Dutch wrote that he got in a hurry one day and swabbed the bore with a 6:1 water/Ballistol mix followed by a dry patch and then a patch soaked in WD-40.  A second WD-40 patch was placed on the jag and run down the bore, leaving the rod in the barrel.  He stated that he pulled the rod a day or so later and found some black crud on the patch but no rust.  I was more than a little skeptical but decided to try it just once and only overnight.  After all, it would greatly simplify my cleaning routine if it worked.  I don't think I slept much that night.  I jumped out of bed the next morning and removed the ramrod from the barrel.  Some black crud on the patch but absolutely no sign of rust.  I put the patched rod back down the barrel.  I checked again that evening and periodically until I shot that particular gun again a few days later.  I've never used any other cleaning technique since.

Now regarding how this relates to your problem of liquids getting to your stock, I remove the lock from the gun and clean it with a toothbrush under hot water from the tap.  Blow it dry, spray with WD-40, blow off excess oil and the lock is ready to go back in the stock.  But first I stuff one end of a paper towel in the lock mortise, wrap the towel around the barrel so it covers the vent and stuff the other end into the mortise.  That way if some of the water/Ballistol mix gets blown out of the vent while swabbing it is soaked up by the paper towel.  It's simple and easy.  I just pulled the ram rods out of my two smoothbores, one of which was fired three days ago and the other has been sitting for about a month.  Not a trace of rust in either bore.

John  

[smokinbuck]

Dennis,
I've had the same problem and have a couple of stocks with man made grain on the comb and/cheek piece. Now I take an old towel or large rag and wrap the stock from the lock down before I pull the plug and blow out the dirty water. Not perfect but pretty close.
Mark

[Dennis Glazener]

Anyway Dutch wrote that he got in a hurry one day and swabbed the bore with a 6:1 water/Ballistol mix followed by a dry patch and then a patch soaked in WD-40.  A second WD-40 patch was placed on the jag and run down the bore, leaving the rod in the barrel.  He stated that he pulled the rod a day or so later and found some black crud on the patch but no rust.  I was more than a little skeptical but decided to try it just once and only overnight.  After all, it would greatly simplify my cleaning routine if it worked.  I don't think I slept much that night.  I jumped out of bed the next morning and removed the ramrod from the barrel.  Some black crud on the patch but absolutely no sign of rust.  I put the patched rod back down the barrel.  I checked again that evening and periodically until I shot that particular gun again a few days later.  I've never used any other cleaning technique since.

Now regarding how this relates to your problem of liquids getting to your stock, I remove the lock from the gun and clean it with a toothbrush under hot water from the tap.  Blow it dry, spray with WD-40, blow off excess oil and the lock is ready to go back in the stock.  But first I stuff one end of a paper towel in the lock mortise, wrap the towel around the barrel so it covers the vent and stuff the other end into the mortise.  That way if some of the water/Ballistol mix gets blown out of the vent while swabbing it is soaked up by the paper towel.  It's simple and easy.  I just pulled the ram rods out of my two smoothbores, one of which was fired three days ago and the other has been sitting for about a month.  Not a trace of rust in either bore.

John  

Thanks John, I will have to try it. Please describe

swabbed the bore with a 6:1 water/Ballistol mix

are we talking about 1, 2 or 15 or more wet patches to complete this "swabbing"
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis,
I've had the same problem and have a couple of stocks with man made grain on the comb and/cheek piece. Now I take an old towel or large rag and wrap the stock from the lock down before I pull the plug and blow out the dirty water. Not perfect but pretty close.
Mark

Guess someone needs to come up with a "rain coat" for a flint rifle

[Stormrider51]

Dennis,   It takes an average of 4 wet patches, 1 dry patch, and two WD-40 patches, the last of which remains in the bore.  I say "average" because everything depends on how fouled the bore is in the first place.  I keep going with wet patches until the patch comes out a dark grey.  Total time to remove and clean lock, clean and oil bore, and put the lock back into place is 10 minutes or so.  I don't get the patches with the water/Ballistol mix dripping wet, just wet enough to dissolve the powder fouling.  Please note that I'm not sure this technique will work with a percussion gun or one with a patent breech that has a chamber smaller in diameter than the bore.  I haven't owned a percussion in quite a few years so I've never tried it.  Also, any water soluble oil may work just as well as Ballistol.  Again, I don't know because I've never used anything else.  If you choose to try this technique let me know how it works for you.  I know at first it gave me the heebie jeebies to not have my firearm completely "clean" but never having any rust show up seems to say the technique works.

John

[mark esterly]

dennis
   I cleaned for years the same as you do complete with stain streaks. no brush to keep with the subject matter. I now pour the water out the muzzle.  the squirrel rifle I'm now building may get a coat of bees wax melted into it instead of a varnish. it worked very well on a cva pistol rebuild.

[Molly]

A squirt of water out the touch hole is common.  Yes, you can wrap that area but when forced out it still gets wet, mostly around the lock area.  You can minimize it however if you leave the pick in and slowly run a patch down with the patch soaking up much of the water.  OR you can turn the rifle on its side, lay a rag under the area and let it squirt.  That's the best way to me.  I trust a bench stand or rack is used to hold it while cleaning.

[smylee grouch]

I like to take the barrel out to clean. I have an icecream bucket with a short section of 2x4 with a shallow depression in the center down in the bucket. I put the tang or hook into this depression so it wont damage the plastic bucket. The bucket catches all the runoff and I can pump and force the dirty water out of the barrel with no mess. It works for me and I use room temp water, no brush and WD-40 after I dry.

[Molly]

OK, I'll offer my visual rational for a brush...after all, it is about to brush or not brush.  I also understand that it is impossible to address that issue without some discussion of the entire cleaning process.

The first photo below shows a series of patches.  The barrel was cleaned with water two or three times.  Then several patches were run down, obviously wet at first then dry.  I really don't recall how many I did before I used the patch numbered 1 but maybe only 8 or so but the barrel was dry at that point and showing a not too dirty patch.  I then shot a dose of Ballistol down and followed that with a brush, up and down maybe a half dozen times.  Patch number 2 is the one that came out following the brushing.  You can follow the trail from there and see the trend.  #11 was also after a dose of Ballistol and a few brush strokes.  Patch #19 was after brushing ONLY (no oil that time).  The last one is the point that I stopped for yesterday.  I always hit it again a day or two later.

As to the patches not being tight enough, I bulk up the single patch with a .018 shooting patch (un-lubed).  It is about all I can do to get it down and out.  Sometimes, if I have a pick in the touch hole when pulling it out, there is so much suction in the barrel it will such the patch right off the jag and into the barrel if removed quickly.  This happens to be my 50 cal, shown in photo 2 and 3.  Those photos show it with a little more shine as I had used a field wipe before the photo and not yet cleaned the oil off.  

Of course the question might be did I get the barrel clean enough with the water...I understand that.  And I also will turn the patch over to use the other side but wanted to be able to show the trend so only one side used for this.

Pics to follow.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Molly:  what material is your cleaning patches?  What diameter is your jag?